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Posted by Proctologically Violated©® on July 5, 2009, 1:33 pm
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Awl --
Yeah, not doing it myself, but I would like to be better prepared, to appear
less of my normally rube-ish self, as I start the procuring process.
I'll be anodizing 1" x 12" rounds w/ tapped ends, and drilled 1/4" plate,
anywhere from 8"x36 to 12"x48, with some drilled holes.
Ito of quan, I'd proly be doing any where from 25 rounds/6 plates to mebbe 4
times that, 100 rounds/25 plates or so, at one time.
How finished does "finished" have to be, for "good" anodizing results?
For example, is typical alum round bar, extruded, and scotchbrited on a
lathe a good enough finish?
Ito "sandpaper grit" finish on plate, how coarse sandpaper is too coarse?
60? 120? 240?
How does their caustic bath act, ito softening sharp edges? Loosening
tapped holes? Should these be plugged?
I'm assuming these caustic baths will obviate any cleaning/degreasing on my
part.
Any stories/experiences? Any sample prices?
So far, my understanding is that regular un-colored anodizing is about 1/3
the cost of colored anodizing. And that the sometimes brilliant finish you
see is not anodizing but a kind of clear-coating on top of the anodizing --
extree charge, no doubt. And also extra protection?
And a general Q:
How does uncolored anodizing differ from regular aluminum oxidation?
Rephrased, why does un-colored anodizing look so good, and oxidized aluminum
look so crappy? Isn't it all Al2O3?
And another general Q:
What alternatives are there to anodizing? Paint/laquer? Powder metal
coatings? Any "stains" for alum?
Any opinions on the relative merits of these, cost or otherwise?
--
Mr. PV'd
Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
Hey, Big Boy, is that a wad (of cash) in yer pocket, or are you just
glad to see me??
Experiment on Homo Sapiens -- CEOs, Lawyers, and Politicians, in
particular.
Spare the animals.
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today.
www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
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Posted by Garlicdude on July 5, 2009, 2:02 pm
Please log in for more thread options Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> Awl --
>
> Yeah, not doing it myself, but I would like to be better prepared, to appear
> less of my normally rube-ish self, as I start the procuring process.
>
> I'll be anodizing 1" x 12" rounds w/ tapped ends, and drilled 1/4" plate,
> anywhere from 8"x36 to 12"x48, with some drilled holes.
>
> Ito of quan, I'd proly be doing any where from 25 rounds/6 plates to mebbe 4
> times that, 100 rounds/25 plates or so, at one time.
>
> How finished does "finished" have to be, for "good" anodizing results?
> For example, is typical alum round bar, extruded, and scotchbrited on a
> lathe a good enough finish?
I guess it depends on what you expect. Scotchbrite or sanded anodizes well. A
lot of this depends on what your customer sees. If you want "eye candy" then
machined all over is the best in my opinion. For sandpaper I use 120 grit. On
parts where looks are important I machine all over and tumble. Sanding to
remove and blend tool marks and then tumble also works well.
Not sure what your budget is but I have one of these model 2016:
http://www.abrasivefinishing.com/burrbench/burrbench.htm
>
> Ito "sandpaper grit" finish on plate, how coarse sandpaper is too coarse?
> 60? 120? 240?
120 and 80 grit are what I use if I sand at all.
>
> How does their caustic bath act, ito softening sharp edges? Loosening
> tapped holes? Should these be plugged?
> I'm assuming these caustic baths will obviate any cleaning/degreasing on my
> part.
The etch removes very little material if done properly, so you parts should be
deburred completely. Masking is in most cases not needed for type II anodize.
Type II is regular anodize, type III is hard anodize and threads need to be
masked or tapped oversize, same for other critical dimensions.
My platers charge extra if parts are dirty. I generally wash my parts in Simple
Green before they go to plate.
>
> Any stories/experiences? Any sample prices?
My plater charges $45 for a minimum of clear type II and $5.00 more for colors
>
> So far, my understanding is that regular un-colored anodizing is about 1/3
> the cost of colored anodizing. And that the sometimes brilliant finish you
> see is not anodizing but a kind of clear-coating on top of the anodizing --
> extree charge, no doubt. And also extra protection?
No sure what your referring to regarding brilliant finish. Most platers offer a
teflon coat for lubricity, which is about all I ever see as far as post plating
things on anodize. Like most plating processes the better the finish going in,
the better the end result.
Also make sure your anodizer uses a good quality sealer, not just a hot water
seal. Nickel acetate is what is generally used IIRC. Sealing is especially
critical as it protects colors from fading. Proper sealing is a part of the
process and you shouldn't have to pay extra.
>
> And a general Q:
> How does uncolored anodizing differ from regular aluminum oxidation?
> Rephrased, why does un-colored anodizing look so good, and oxidized aluminum
> look so crappy? Isn't it all Al2O3?
Just guessing at this, but it might be because the anodizing is a controlled
process?
>
> And another general Q:
>
> What alternatives are there to anodizing? Paint/laquer? Powder metal
> coatings? Any "stains" for alum?
> Any opinions on the relative merits of these, cost or otherwise?
>
I would think that if you went with powder coat or paints that threads and close
tolerance details would need masking.
Best,
Steve
--
Regards,
Steve Saling
aka The Garlic Dude ©
Gilroy, CA
The Garlic Capital of The World
http://tinyurl.com/2avg58
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Posted by Stu Fields on July 5, 2009, 3:49 pm
Please log in for more thread options
> Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
>> Awl --
>>
>> Yeah, not doing it myself, but I would like to be better prepared, to
>> appear less of my normally rube-ish self, as I start the procuring
>> process.
>>
>> I'll be anodizing 1" x 12" rounds w/ tapped ends, and drilled 1/4" plate,
>> anywhere from 8"x36 to 12"x48, with some drilled holes.
>>
>> Ito of quan, I'd proly be doing any where from 25 rounds/6 plates to
>> mebbe 4 times that, 100 rounds/25 plates or so, at one time.
>>
>> How finished does "finished" have to be, for "good" anodizing results?
>> For example, is typical alum round bar, extruded, and scotchbrited on a
>> lathe a good enough finish?
>
> I guess it depends on what you expect. Scotchbrite or sanded anodizes
> well. A lot of this depends on what your customer sees. If you want "eye
> candy" then machined all over is the best in my opinion. For sandpaper I
> use 120 grit. On parts where looks are important I machine all over and
> tumble. Sanding to remove and blend tool marks and then tumble also works
> well.
>
> Not sure what your budget is but I have one of these model 2016:
>
> http://www.abrasivefinishing.com/burrbench/burrbench.htm
>
>
>>
>> Ito "sandpaper grit" finish on plate, how coarse sandpaper is too coarse?
>> 60? 120? 240?
>
> 120 and 80 grit are what I use if I sand at all.
>
>
>>
>> How does their caustic bath act, ito softening sharp edges? Loosening
>> tapped holes? Should these be plugged?
>> I'm assuming these caustic baths will obviate any cleaning/degreasing on
>> my part.
>
> The etch removes very little material if done properly, so you parts
> should be deburred completely. Masking is in most cases not needed for
> type II anodize. Type II is regular anodize, type III is hard anodize and
> threads need to be masked or tapped oversize, same for other critical
> dimensions.
>
> My platers charge extra if parts are dirty. I generally wash my parts in
> Simple Green before they go to plate.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Any stories/experiences? Any sample prices?
>
> My plater charges $45 for a minimum of clear type II and $5.00 more for
> colors
>
>>
>> So far, my understanding is that regular un-colored anodizing is about
>> 1/3 the cost of colored anodizing. And that the sometimes brilliant
>> finish you see is not anodizing but a kind of clear-coating on top of the
>> anodizing -- extree charge, no doubt. And also extra protection?
>
> No sure what your referring to regarding brilliant finish. Most platers
> offer a teflon coat for lubricity, which is about all I ever see as far as
> post plating things on anodize. Like most plating processes the better
> the finish going in, the better the end result.
>
> Also make sure your anodizer uses a good quality sealer, not just a hot
> water seal. Nickel acetate is what is generally used IIRC. Sealing is
> especially critical as it protects colors from fading. Proper sealing is
> a part of the process and you shouldn't have to pay extra.
>
>
>>
>> And a general Q:
>> How does uncolored anodizing differ from regular aluminum oxidation?
>> Rephrased, why does un-colored anodizing look so good, and oxidized
>> aluminum look so crappy? Isn't it all Al2O3?
>
> Just guessing at this, but it might be because the anodizing is a
> controlled process?
>>
>> And another general Q:
>>
>> What alternatives are there to anodizing? Paint/laquer? Powder metal
>> coatings? Any "stains" for alum?
>> Any opinions on the relative merits of these, cost or otherwise?
>>
>
> I would think that if you went with powder coat or paints that threads and
> close tolerance details would need masking.
>
> Best,
> Steve
>
> --
>
>
> Regards,
> Steve Saling
> aka The Garlic Dude ©
> Gilroy, CA
> The Garlic Capital of The World
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2avg58
Just a point and it probably doesn't apply here, but I've been told numerous
times: "Do not anodize flight critical parts". The fatigue life is reduced
by up to 50%. See our website: www.experimentalhelo.com and look for the
anodize article. One $100,000 helo bit the dirt because of a little bit of
anodizing for looks.
Stu
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Posted by Carl Ijames on July 5, 2009, 4:14 pm
Please log in for more thread options > Awl --
>
> Yeah, not doing it myself, but I would like to be better prepared, to
> appear less of my normally rube-ish self, as I start the procuring
> process.
>
> I'll be anodizing 1" x 12" rounds w/ tapped ends, and drilled 1/4" plate,
> anywhere from 8"x36 to 12"x48, with some drilled holes.
>
> Ito of quan, I'd proly be doing any where from 25 rounds/6 plates to mebbe
> 4 times that, 100 rounds/25 plates or so, at one time.
>
> How finished does "finished" have to be, for "good" anodizing results?
> For example, is typical alum round bar, extruded, and scotchbrited on a
> lathe a good enough finish?
>
> Ito "sandpaper grit" finish on plate, how coarse sandpaper is too coarse?
> 60? 120? 240?
>
> How does their caustic bath act, ito softening sharp edges? Loosening
> tapped holes? Should these be plugged?
> I'm assuming these caustic baths will obviate any cleaning/degreasing on
> my part.
>
> Any stories/experiences? Any sample prices?
For big lots the anodizer we use in Baltimore charges $250 per tankload when
we send up large flat plates (18x33"x.16") 30-150 at a time. Their tanks
are about 8' long and they can get 8 plates in a load so they charge us
$31.25 each. That's for type III hardcoat (also called milspec) which is
much thicker and tougher than normal type II commercial anodizing. We
negotiated that price based on several hundred plates per year; the type II
was about $20 per plate. Another big plater in town quoted us 50% higher,
because their tanks were smaller so it would take them more tankloads. For
smaller pieces and smaller quantities that wouldn't matter so much but you
will probably see a $75-150 minimum lot charge if you only take up a few
smaller pieces. The type II has a soft silver color and takes dyes well.
The type III looks like a muddy brownish silver, even greenish sometimes,
and doesn't look that good dyed. We don't get it dyed, just the natural
finish. We used to use type II and have the plates run through a grainer
with 220 grit (I think), and the etch step took out all the scratches and
left a very smooth surface to the eye and touch. The type III etch is even
deeper so we quit graining them, just leave the mill finish, and they come
out nice and smooth. The Al2O3 layer is less dense than the aluminum metal
so holes actually shrink in diameter about 0.001" or less. We don't have
any masking done and the threaded holes come out fine. We have three
precision through holes and we just had to tweak the machined diameter
slightly so the final size was as desired. I wouldn't leave any big dirt
spots on the metal but we just let the coolant drain off and air dry and
their wash takes care of it.
>
> So far, my understanding is that regular un-colored anodizing is about 1/3
> the cost of colored anodizing. And that the sometimes brilliant finish
> you see is not anodizing but a kind of clear-coating on top of the
> anodizing -- extree charge, no doubt. And also extra protection?
>
> And a general Q:
> How does uncolored anodizing differ from regular aluminum oxidation?
> Rephrased, why does un-colored anodizing look so good, and oxidized
> aluminum look so crappy? Isn't it all Al2O3?
It's all Al2O3 but the anodized film is thicker, more uniform, and the
sealing step makes it denser and adhere better so it is much more scratch
resistant (doesn't flake off). I've cleaned grungy spills with a red
scotchbrite pad and didn't leave any scratches.
>
> And another general Q:
>
> What alternatives are there to anodizing? Paint/laquer? Powder metal
> coatings? Any "stains" for alum?
> Any opinions on the relative merits of these, cost or otherwise?
>
> --
>
> Mr. PV'd
>
> Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
> Hey, Big Boy, is that a wad (of cash) in yer pocket, or are you just
> glad to see me??
>
> Experiment on Homo Sapiens -- CEOs, Lawyers, and Politicians, in
> particular.
> Spare the animals.
>
> Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today.
> www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
>
>
>
Verizon cut the alt groups so this probably won't get to alt.machines.cnc,
sorry.
-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
|
|
Posted by Garlicdude on July 5, 2009, 4:48 pm
Please log in for more thread options Carl Ijames wrote:
We used to use type II and have the plates run through a grainer
> with 220 grit (I think), and the etch step took out all the scratches and
> left a very smooth surface to the eye and touch.
Graining does give a very nice cosmetic appearance. It's like running plates
through a large belt sander where the belt runs horizontal the piece to be
grained is on a table and either the belt or the table can be adjusted for
thickness. Called brushed finish like you might find on your SST stove top in
the kitchen. Expect to pay.
The Al2O3 layer is less dense than the aluminum metal
> so holes actually shrink in diameter about 0.001" or less. We don't have
> any masking done and the threaded holes come out fine. We have three
> precision through holes and we just had to tweak the machined diameter
> slightly so the final size was as desired.
With my plater on type II I can tell them to maintain size and they can hold
things within a .0001 or two.
On type III, hardcoat, milspec, etc. at least around here in Silly Cone Valley
you call out a TOTAL buildup, half of the buildup penetrates and half is actual
buildup. Assuming we're talking your gym equipment the hard anodize would
better resist scratching than type II. Any threaded holes would need to be
masked or made over size. If you had any close fits you would need to
compensate or mask. Type III dyes black fairly well in my experience, but
that's about it for colors.
Be careful who you deal with in platers, there are some real hacks out there
that can turn you work into crap in a quick minute!!! Doesn't necessarially
mean you have to pay through the nose. When I find a good plater I'm very
reluctant to move for chump change. Take a small lot of parts and see how they
do. Practice your Spanish. :)
>
> Verizon cut the alt groups so this probably won't get to alt.machines.cnc,
> sorry.
>
> -----
> Regards,
> Carl Ijames
>
>
--
Regards,
Steve Saling
aka The Garlic Dude ©
Gilroy, CA
The Garlic Capital of The World
http://tinyurl.com/2avg58
|
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>
> Yeah, not doing it myself, but I would like to be better prepared, to appear
> less of my normally rube-ish self, as I start the procuring process.
>
> I'll be anodizing 1" x 12" rounds w/ tapped ends, and drilled 1/4" plate,
> anywhere from 8"x36 to 12"x48, with some drilled holes.
>
> Ito of quan, I'd proly be doing any where from 25 rounds/6 plates to mebbe 4
> times that, 100 rounds/25 plates or so, at one time.
>
> How finished does "finished" have to be, for "good" anodizing results?
> For example, is typical alum round bar, extruded, and scotchbrited on a
> lathe a good enough finish?