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Posted by clay on August 14, 2006, 8:37 pm
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So, with all the business/machining wisdom in this group. How do you go
about convincing customers/bosses etc that proper fixturing (and getting
them to pay for it) is the secret to making good one-off prototypes?
Really good machinists already know this. But convincing accountant
type/penny pinchers is so hard. especially when the fixturing/NRE costs
are at or above the actual proto costs.
anyone have any sage advice on how to pull this one off? making bad
parts, and saying I told you so doesn't work out so well. getting kind
of tired of working for customers that don't understand this concept. my
historical solution has always been to charge more to begin with,
include the tooling costs, but that doesn't always work either. of
course, it helps to have some credibility with the customer, but even
then that isn't enough.
ca
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Posted by Stan Dornfeld on August 14, 2006, 9:53 pm
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Hi there Clay..
In a job shop environment NRE tooling for a prototype is a bit of a joke.
Better to charge the whole price you need. When it's production time,
likely as not, the tooling will have to be revised for production. Either
you will see a better way to machine the part or you will need different
tooling for many stations on the machine.
One thing might help you. It did me. Look at all the most often used
processes needed to manufacture your popular parts.
Then TOOL the processes not the part. If you saw off stock, tool the saw to
be more automatic. Take a look at the way the shop is set up. Eighty
percent of the time you only need twenty percent of the popular tooling.
Try to get that tooling up close and personal to the operator. That will
take much time out of the walking around to get going. It will even a more
pleasant experience for the machinist.
I don't know your operation. But, just look around and try to get the "air"
time down as much as you can.
You will earn more per hour and that's what it's all about.
I don't care to build tooling for a part. I'd rather be building tooling
for my shop. Then "I" can earn the money off of it for the next twenty
years. Making tooling for the customer so he can make earnings for the next
twenty years irritates the Hell out of me. Especially when I only have one
chance to make a buck and he is trying to corner me into a cheap price.
I had an engineer as me to quote a hole gauge for a small bolt circle. .035
diameter holes, it needed to have pins installed to check the hole locations
within +-.00015.
I rolled my eyes. Shook my head. And said ok. *Sigh After thinking about
how to build what he wanted and installing the pins and checking it under
the microscope, I said I needed $800 to do the job.
Three things happened:
1) He told me he could get it done for $200 from one of his buddies.
2) I breathed a sigh of relief. 'I didn't have to bang my head on this
job.'
3) About three months later the job the gauge was for came back into my
shop. *Smile The inspector said I could borrow the gauge if I wanted. He
also said if the gauge doesn't fit, the parts may still be ok because the
gauge isn't very good.
I withheld a BIG laugh until I arrived back at my shop. *GRIN
Best regards,
Stan-
> So, with all the business/machining wisdom in this group. How do you go
> about convincing customers/bosses etc that proper fixturing (and getting
> them to pay for it) is the secret to making good one-off prototypes?
> Really good machinists already know this. But convincing accountant
> type/penny pinchers is so hard. especially when the fixturing/NRE costs
> are at or above the actual proto costs.
>
> anyone have any sage advice on how to pull this one off? making bad parts,
> and saying I told you so doesn't work out so well. getting kind of tired
> of working for customers that don't understand this concept. my historical
> solution has always been to charge more to begin with, include the tooling
> costs, but that doesn't always work either. of course, it helps to have
> some credibility with the customer, but even then that isn't enough.
>
> ca
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Posted by Michael on August 14, 2006, 11:02 pm
Please log in for more thread options
Stan Dornfeld wrote:
> Hi there Clay..
>
> In a job shop environment NRE tooling for a prototype is a bit of a joke.
> Better to charge the whole price you need. When it's production time,
> likely as not, the tooling will have to be revised for production. Either
> you will see a better way to machine the part or you will need different
> tooling for many stations on the machine.
>
> One thing might help you. It did me. Look at all the most often used
> processes needed to manufacture your popular parts.
> Then TOOL the processes not the part. If you saw off stock, tool the saw to
> be more automatic. Take a look at the way the shop is set up. Eighty
> percent of the time you only need twenty percent of the popular tooling.
> Try to get that tooling up close and personal to the operator. That will
> take much time out of the walking around to get going. It will even a more
> pleasant experience for the machinist.
>
> I don't know your operation. But, just look around and try to get the "air"
> time down as much as you can.
> You will earn more per hour and that's what it's all about.
>
> I don't care to build tooling for a part. I'd rather be building tooling
> for my shop. Then "I" can earn the money off of it for the next twenty
> years. Making tooling for the customer so he can make earnings for the next
> twenty years irritates the Hell out of me. Especially when I only have one
> chance to make a buck and he is trying to corner me into a cheap price.
>
> I had an engineer as me to quote a hole gauge for a small bolt circle. .035
> diameter holes, it needed to have pins installed to check the hole locations
> within +-.00015.
>
> I rolled my eyes. Shook my head. And said ok. *Sigh After thinking about
> how to build what he wanted and installing the pins and checking it under
> the microscope, I said I needed $800 to do the job.
>
> Three things happened:
>
> 1) He told me he could get it done for $200 from one of his buddies.
> 2) I breathed a sigh of relief. 'I didn't have to bang my head on this
> job.'
> 3) About three months later the job the gauge was for came back into my
> shop. *Smile The inspector said I could borrow the gauge if I wanted. He
> also said if the gauge doesn't fit, the parts may still be ok because the
> gauge isn't very good.
>
> I withheld a BIG laugh until I arrived back at my shop. *GRIN
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stan-
>
>
>> So, with all the business/machining wisdom in this group. How do you go
>> about convincing customers/bosses etc that proper fixturing (and getting
>> them to pay for it) is the secret to making good one-off prototypes?
>> Really good machinists already know this. But convincing accountant
>> type/penny pinchers is so hard. especially when the fixturing/NRE costs
>> are at or above the actual proto costs.
>>
>> anyone have any sage advice on how to pull this one off? making bad parts,
>> and saying I told you so doesn't work out so well. getting kind of tired
>> of working for customers that don't understand this concept. my historical
>> solution has always been to charge more to begin with, include the tooling
>> costs, but that doesn't always work either. of course, it helps to have
>> some credibility with the customer, but even then that isn't enough.
>>
>> ca
>
>
If there is no margin to be made, send this customer right on down to
the guy who will do it for $200.00! If somebody is going to lose money
you want it to be $200.00 guy. Before long he will be closed and out of
the picture plus the customer will be much wiser when he comes back
later. If there is nothing to be made you come out far ahead to pass on
the quote at the start.
If a customer wants work done right it will cost something to build it
properly.
Michael
--
Michael Gailey
Artistic CNC Mill, Router and Engraver Programming
3D modeling for Product Design and Development
http://www.microsystemsgeorgia.com/toc.htm
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Posted by clay on August 15, 2006, 1:50 am
Please log in for more thread options
Stan Dornfeld wrote:
> Hi there Clay..
>
> In a job shop environment NRE tooling for a prototype is a bit of a joke.
> Better to charge the whole price you need. When it's production time,
> likely as not, the tooling will have to be revised for production. Either
> you will see a better way to machine the part or you will need different
> tooling for many stations on the machine.
>
> One thing might help you. It did me. Look at all the most often used
> processes needed to manufacture your popular parts.
> Then TOOL the processes not the part. If you saw off stock, tool the saw to
> be more automatic. Take a look at the way the shop is set up. Eighty
> percent of the time you only need twenty percent of the popular tooling.
> Try to get that tooling up close and personal to the operator. That will
> take much time out of the walking around to get going. It will even a more
> pleasant experience for the machinist.
>
> I don't know your operation. But, just look around and try to get the "air"
> time down as much as you can.
> You will earn more per hour and that's what it's all about.
>
> I don't care to build tooling for a part. I'd rather be building tooling
> for my shop. Then "I" can earn the money off of it for the next twenty
> years. Making tooling for the customer so he can make earnings for the next
> twenty years irritates the Hell out of me. Especially when I only have one
> chance to make a buck and he is trying to corner me into a cheap price.
>
> I had an engineer as me to quote a hole gauge for a small bolt circle. .035
> diameter holes, it needed to have pins installed to check the hole locations
> within +-.00015.
>
> I rolled my eyes. Shook my head. And said ok. *Sigh After thinking about
> how to build what he wanted and installing the pins and checking it under
> the microscope, I said I needed $800 to do the job.
>
> Three things happened:
>
> 1) He told me he could get it done for $200 from one of his buddies.
> 2) I breathed a sigh of relief. 'I didn't have to bang my head on this
> job.'
> 3) About three months later the job the gauge was for came back into my
> shop. *Smile The inspector said I could borrow the gauge if I wanted. He
> also said if the gauge doesn't fit, the parts may still be ok because the
> gauge isn't very good.
>
> I withheld a BIG laugh until I arrived back at my shop. *GRIN
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stan-
>
>
>
>>So, with all the business/machining wisdom in this group. How do you go
>>about convincing customers/bosses etc that proper fixturing (and getting
>>them to pay for it) is the secret to making good one-off prototypes?
>>Really good machinists already know this. But convincing accountant
>>type/penny pinchers is so hard. especially when the fixturing/NRE costs
>>are at or above the actual proto costs.
>>
>>anyone have any sage advice on how to pull this one off? making bad parts,
>>and saying I told you so doesn't work out so well. getting kind of tired
>>of working for customers that don't understand this concept. my historical
>>solution has always been to charge more to begin with, include the tooling
>>costs, but that doesn't always work either. of course, it helps to have
>>some credibility with the customer, but even then that isn't enough.
>>
>>ca
>
>
>
Sage advice, thanks. Some things suggested I handn't considered.
As always there is more to the story. Without going into a lot of
details, now imagine that the customer is now YOUR machine shop boss
instead. And your boss is an accountant AND owns the company too. So any
money not spent on one-off fixturing is money into his wallet. Now how
do you suggest to that person that proper tooling/fixturing is the way
to get correct parts????? Otherwise, you make crappy parts, and then
make them again when the design changes, etc... Ultimately sending the
drawings to another shop, that charges twice what you charge, takes
three times longer, because they roll the fixturing etc into the cost.
And the parts come back perfect.
Suggesting, getting a new boss, (or new job) isn't an option in this
circumstance. That is the easy answer. (We've all been there!)
How do you go about convincing someone that thinks they are smarter than
you, that spending their extra money, will get them what they really
want. Suggest/advise the right tooling is required in order to get the
parts right, and let them make the decision? Or do you just set the
price high enough to include the proper tooling/fixturing, and not tell
them how it is really being done. Sometimes I think the customer has no
clue what is really required to make proper parts. All they ever see are
the perfect $$ parts, and proudly show them off. But when the customer
is your boss, that is a different animal altogether.
ca
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Posted by Anthony on August 15, 2006, 5:21 am
Please log in for more thread options
> Sage advice, thanks. Some things suggested I handn't considered.
>
> As always there is more to the story. Without going into a lot of
> details, now imagine that the customer is now YOUR machine shop boss
> instead. And your boss is an accountant AND owns the company too. So
> any money not spent on one-off fixturing is money into his wallet. Now
> how do you suggest to that person that proper tooling/fixturing is the
> way to get correct parts????? Otherwise, you make crappy parts, and
> then make them again when the design changes, etc... Ultimately
> sending the drawings to another shop, that charges twice what you
> charge, takes three times longer, because they roll the fixturing etc
> into the cost. And the parts come back perfect.
Clay,
I've learned a few things working for a manager so tight his eyelids roll
back in his head when he bends over. #1 on that list is that money talks
and bullshit walks, and until you have some hard DATA, it's all bullshit.
The boss is all about making money, you need to get the data together
that will show him on paper, that making the fixturing will make him more
money.
Some things to consider in your quest for hard data:
1. Reduced labor costs in manufacturing the parts.
2. Reduced costs of quality.
3. More work in the shop, less going out to secondary vendors which cost
the shop money.
4. Less rework, remakes, less material costs.
5. Machining fixturing can double as inspection fixturing, a twofor.
6. More repeat business because the quality is there. Making sub-standard
parts is going to put you on the list of sub-standard suppliers and way
down on the food chain when it comes to doling out future work. (This is
somewhat hard to quantify on paper, but is a fairly universal truth.)
--
Anthony
You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.
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> about convincing customers/bosses etc that proper fixturing (and getting
> them to pay for it) is the secret to making good one-off prototypes?
> Really good machinists already know this. But convincing accountant
> type/penny pinchers is so hard. especially when the fixturing/NRE costs
> are at or above the actual proto costs.
>
> anyone have any sage advice on how to pull this one off? making bad parts,
> and saying I told you so doesn't work out so well. getting kind of tired
> of working for customers that don't understand this concept. my historical
> solution has always been to charge more to begin with, include the tooling
> costs, but that doesn't always work either. of course, it helps to have
> some credibility with the customer, but even then that isn't enough.
>
> ca