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Posted by Ed Huntress on April 20, 2008, 10:53 am
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>> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:09:54 -0700 (PDT), vk3...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >> The young generally didnt give a shit about anything other than sound
>> >> bytes with zip data backing those sound bytes up.
>>
>> >> Meism and Nowism along with Cliche politics is more their forte.
>>
>> >> Gunner
>>
>> >Well, yes - agree. They have largely given up, they have seen their
>> >elders engage in endless vituperative debate, and nothing happens
>> >except things get worse..why should they give a rats arse about the
>> >dinosaurs, thrashing around, making lots of noise, but basically doing
>> >nothing except blaming "someone else"....so, can opening themselves,
>> >listening to sound bites, me too isms - desperately hoping, without
>> >any real conviction, that someone will offer hope and inspiration, not
>> >just more lies and broken promises.........
>>
>> >$4 gas is the least of our problems.....
>>
>> Given up? The little skulls filled with mush never started. They were
>> educated to be leftards..which took too much effort so they have
>> simply become semimoble couch potatos who bow to the latest fashion
>> trends which make them all look the same, with little incentive to do
>> anything other than fuck, get drunk and have a ready supply of
>> ringtones to download.
>>
>> Gunner
>
> And here we see a rare agreement between my views and Gunner's.
> BOTH liberals and the right were
> involved in the deceptive "re-engineering"
> of our educational system over a period of
> decades starting over 100 years ago.
>
> Real education, it was decided,
> was for the elite classes and
> what was needed was a system
> of "socialization" and indoctrination
> to produce happy non-thinking
> obedient worker drones
> and cannon fodder for the military.
The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people making it,
including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this "indoctrinating
educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy non-thinking
obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.
It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are; complaints
about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that nearly
everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe education hasn't
hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow, they've
escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.
--
Ed Huntress
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Posted by F. George McDuffee on April 20, 2008, 2:38 pm
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On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:53:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
<snip>
>The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people making it,
>including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this "indoctrinating
>educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy non-thinking
>obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.
>
>It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are; complaints
>about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that nearly
>everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe education hasn't
>hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow, they've
>escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.
>
>--
>Ed Huntress
===========
The operational phrase here is "complaints about education are
nearly universal." These have existed as long as there has been
"education," and include such "gems" as whining about the shift
from instruction in Latin to instruction in the vernacular, the
introduction of printed texts because it interfered with the
development of the student's memory, and the elimination of Attic
Greek as a HS graduation requirement.
Before I retired, I spent the last 15 years at the post secondary
[community college] level first as an adjunct instructor, then a
full time instructor, and administrator [Registrar and Director
of Institutional Research]. In many cases, much of the [new]
"educational" money received is not used for what most people
would classify as instruction purposes, i.e. either direct
instruction or up-graded facilities, but rather to generate
increasing numbers of reports and data, which no one ever reads
or acts on.
We now have entire departments involved with data collection and
report filing, including student loans. Indeed, at my last
school, the Student Financial Aid Office [separate from
institutional accounting] had more employees and worked more
hours that the local Credit Union, that handled about 10X the
dollar volume. Note that this significant growth in
non-educational activity was not voluntary on the part of the
institution or its Board of Regents, but were imposed by funding
or other regulatory/accreditation agencies. Conversation with
colleagues in public ElHi indicates the same pattern of
significant increases in non-educational activity. FWIW -- much
of this reporting could and should be eliminated by the
imposition of a standard data format, and the transmission of
this raw but formatted data to the agency involved, so that they
can slice and dice as they desire. Other, very time consuming,
activities can and should be eliminated, such as the surveys of
graduate income. Not only is it difficult to track down
graduates from 5 and 10 years ago, many will not respond, so the
data is worthless. Given that everyone earning a wage must file
an income tax return, and social security numbers are used for
both the return and student ID, the cost effective and accurate
method would be to send a list of ssns [in machine readable
format, not a paper copy] to the IRS, but noooooo...
Unfortunately, this is the same pattern that I observed in the
60s and 70s while I was employed in manufacturing, where the
reporting and accounting demands [and staffing] increased
exponentially, followed by collapse and off-shoring in the 1980s
and 1990s, largely because of excessive overhead/burden rates.
This confusion is significantly compounded by confusion about
what "education" means. It is a noun or a verb, a process or a
product? Indeed, it appears to take on different meanings for
even the same speaker, from sentence to sentence, leading to an
endless series of "problematiques," and confusion.
Many of the "problems" with education are due to its nature as a
continuously "moving target." Think of the problems that would
ensue in the machining trade if the inch used for tolerances kept
changing/shrinking. Processes that were adequate today [CsubPK >
1.33] would be out-of-control tomorrow. Exactly the same thing
occurs with the amended and "re-normed" college admissions tests
such as the SAT and ACT. These are "normed" against selected
high school graduates, generally from private prep schools, are
then "adjusted" to fail a preset fraction of these applicants,
and then these are used to evaluate the "adequacy" of a general
high-school education, not for additional academic work, but for
"life!"
Even the word "adequate" is subject to confusion, as does this
mean a minimum level of knowledge or does it mean a desired/ideal
level of knowledge, and in either case who sets the standards and
how are these measured?
One major problem is that we have allowed the "experts in the
instructional topics," to set the "educational standards."
IMNSHO, these "subject matter experts" should not be allowed to
determine what "every child must know." For example, almost all
teachers of American history feel it is vital that the student
know and "appreciate" the importance of the "Northwest
Ordinance." Yet I know of no study showing any relationship,
causal or predictive, between knowledge about or appreciation of
the "Northwest Ordnance," and social status/income, criminal
history, etc.
FYI --
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/ordinance/
It is good to see that people are interested in education, I
suggest:
(1) Define in your own mind what you mean by education. Most
likely you will wind up with education(1), education(2), etc.
Just be sure which one you are using when discussing "education."
(2) Pay particular attention to what your local schools feel the
object and standards are for "education." [What they do is far
more important than what they say.] Are their standards a
"minimum" or an "ideal," and is the intent to get their students
ready to assume their roles as adults or preparation for yet more
"education." These need not be contradictory goals, but one must
take priority, bearing in mind that college graduates are still a
minority of HS graduates.
(3) Determine how much of your local school funding is used for
actual "educational" activities and support, how much for
mandated but non educational services/activites, how much for
"administration," and how much for generation of baffle-gas
reports.
(4) "Observation and imitation" remains the primary method of
learning, not classroom instruction. To the extent possible,
take time to include your children in the operation of your
family, for example how much money you spend on food, rent, gas,
and other car expenses. It is precisely the [lack of]
appreciation of the magnitude of these expenses v income that
cause the most problems in young adults. Credit cards are now
far more likely to cause problems than "sex."
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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Posted by James Waldby on April 20, 2008, 3:09 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:38:59 -0500, F. George McDuffee wrote:
[Snip George's readable comments]
> Many of the "problems" with education are due to its nature as a
> continuously "moving target." Think of the problems that would ensue in
> the machining trade if the inch used for tolerances kept
> changing/shrinking. Processes that were adequate today [CsubPK > 1.33]
> would be out-of-control tomorrow.
[...]
While looking at a page about Sunnen CNC hones[*] to understand C_pk
I noticed some references to air-gaging systems, which I'm not
familiar with, and for which a minute with Google didn't help much.
Is anyone here an expert re air-gaging systems, whatever they are?
[*] http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3618/is_200702/ai_n18706000
(which I viewed with some plugins turned off)
-jiw
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Posted by F. George McDuffee on April 20, 2008, 4:07 pm
Please log in for more thread options wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:38:59 -0500, F. George McDuffee wrote:
>[Snip George's readable comments]
>> Many of the "problems" with education are due to its nature as a
>> continuously "moving target." Think of the problems that would ensue in
>> the machining trade if the inch used for tolerances kept
>> changing/shrinking. Processes that were adequate today [CsubPK > 1.33]
>> would be out-of-control tomorrow.
>[...]
>
>While looking at a page about Sunnen CNC hones[*] to understand C_pk
>I noticed some references to air-gaging systems, which I'm not
>familiar with, and for which a minute with Google didn't help much.
>Is anyone here an expert re air-gaging systems, whatever they are?
>
>[*] http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3618/is_200702/ai_n18706000
>(which I viewed with some plugins turned off)
>
>-jiw
==========
Good question.
Air gauging is a technique used to accurately measure the bore
diameter of very deep holes like rifle barrels. The principal is
that you have a short but very accurate guage pin a few
thousandths [or less] under the minimum bore size, at the tip of
the probe with a hole in the side. Air is supplied though the
tube that is the stem of the guage. The air flow will depend on
the space between the probe tip and the bore to be measured.
Clean, very well regulated regulated air is supplied through a
flow meter, typically one of the bouncing ball type, and the
max/min readings are located on the flow guage using very
accurate, typically jig ground, min/max setting masters. As long
as the ball is between the min/max marks on the flow guage, the
bore is within specs. You can also use intermediate setting
rings to get even finer measurements if desired. Rotation of the
part will indicate any out-of-round conditions at the probe hole
location [ball bounces], along the length of the bore.
for more than you wanted to know click on
http://www.coventrygauge.co.uk/Airgaugingproductindex.htm
http://www.frankcox.com/pages/airelectronicgauges.htm
http://www.marposs.com/site/family.asp?idappl=37
http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/brm/brm100.html
http://www.gtma.co.uk/default.asp?folder=160
http://www.edmundsgages.com/products/airgaging.htm
google on < "air gauging"> for 11k hits
google on "air gaging"> 6,100 hits
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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Posted by Hawke on April 21, 2008, 1:37 am
Please log in for more thread options
> >> >> The young generally didnt give a shit about anything other than
sound
> >> >> bytes with zip data backing those sound bytes up.
> >>
> >> >> Meism and Nowism along with Cliche politics is more their forte.
> >>
> >> >> Gunner
> >>
> >> >Well, yes - agree. They have largely given up, they have seen their
> >> >elders engage in endless vituperative debate, and nothing happens
> >> >except things get worse..why should they give a rats arse about the
> >> >dinosaurs, thrashing around, making lots of noise, but basically doing
> >> >nothing except blaming "someone else"....so, can opening themselves,
> >> >listening to sound bites, me too isms - desperately hoping, without
> >> >any real conviction, that someone will offer hope and inspiration, not
> >> >just more lies and broken promises.........
> >>
> >> >$4 gas is the least of our problems.....
> >>
> >> Given up? The little skulls filled with mush never started. They were
> >> educated to be leftards..which took too much effort so they have
> >> simply become semimoble couch potatos who bow to the latest fashion
> >> trends which make them all look the same, with little incentive to do
> >> anything other than fuck, get drunk and have a ready supply of
> >> ringtones to download.
> >>
> >> Gunner
> >
> > And here we see a rare agreement between my views and Gunner's.
> > BOTH liberals and the right were
> > involved in the deceptive "re-engineering"
> > of our educational system over a period of
> > decades starting over 100 years ago.
> >
> > Real education, it was decided,
> > was for the elite classes and
> > what was needed was a system
> > of "socialization" and indoctrination
> > to produce happy non-thinking
> > obedient worker drones
> > and cannon fodder for the military.
>
> The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people making it,
> including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this
"indoctrinating
> educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy non-thinking
> obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.
>
> It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are; complaints
> about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that nearly
> everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe education
hasn't
> hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow, they've
> escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
I've thought many times that the guys saying how lousy the education system
is and how it indoctrinates students, puts out idiots, and is falling apart,
are products of that exact system. Yet somehow they managed to come out all
right and usually brag about how smart they are too. Seems like a
contradiction to me, but since it's usually right wing types saying this
that makes it understandable.
I'm a product of the California public education system myself and think
that I have a pretty good idea of how well it works. Decades ago when I was
in high school, in the old days, I think the system was pretty damn good.
The teachers seemed to know what they were doing and tried to teach us.
Unfortunately, people like me didn't care and didn't try. The result, I
think I came in about 450th in a class of about some 5 hundred. Looking
back, it is clear that a good education was being offered but I wasn't
taking it.
Later on I tried going to college...many times. I failed every time because
I didn't want to do the work. The teaching? I think it was pretty good and
the teachers seemed pretty dedicated to me to doing their jobs. Eventually,
I got an AA degree. Twenty years passed and I went back to college at age 48
to become a paralegal. This time I did the work and it was hard. I actually
had to put in a lot of effort to get through it. I kept at it until I
completed my bachelor's degree. I got good grades but again, it was hard and
I worked a lot of hours. The younger students didn't work hard. They played
around, didn't show up to class, didn't work very hard, except for a few who
also did the work. The teachers didn't play around either and assigned a lot
of work and didn't give good grades to anyone that didn't deserve it, at
least the vast majority of the time.
Then I went to graduate school. This was a big step up and was real hard.
All the lousy, lazy students were gone and only A level people were there.
Every teacher had a PH.D. Every one of them was really smart and really well
educated. They made it very difficult to pass their classes. I graduated
anyway because I was serious this time and worked at it. So what is the
bottom line about our education system? Overall, it's damn good. It's true I
didn't go to any ghetto schools, but I went to schools all over California
and the thing I found in all of them was that it was really up to the
student what you got out of it. If you wanted a good education you were able
to get one. From personal experience I know it's that way. If you don't want
to try then they system looks lousy. But if your really want an education
you can get a good one and it's a real bargain. So when I hear people say
the system sucks it just tells me they don't know what they are talking
about. Either that or when they had their chance they were too lazy or too
stupid to benefit from the great deal they had at their fingertips.
Hawke
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