|
Posted by Ed Huntress on April 21, 2008, 9:46 am
Please log in for more thread options
<snip>
> So what is the
> bottom line about our education system? Overall, it's damn good. It's true
> I
> didn't go to any ghetto schools, but I went to schools all over California
> and the thing I found in all of them was that it was really up to the
> student what you got out of it. If you wanted a good education you were
> able
> to get one. From personal experience I know it's that way. If you don't
> want
> to try then they system looks lousy. But if your really want an education
> you can get a good one and it's a real bargain. So when I hear people say
> the system sucks it just tells me they don't know what they are talking
> about. Either that or when they had their chance they were too lazy or too
> stupid to benefit from the great deal they had at their fingertips.
>
> Hawke
I generally agree. The opportunities are there. The motivation to take
advantage of it is lacking. And the idea that students are bored because
education somehow doesn't engage them, while tautologically true, only tells
us that those students don't want to be engaged.
--
Ed Huntress
|
|
Posted by Citizen Jimserac on April 21, 2008, 6:55 am
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>
>
>
>
> >> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:09:54 -0700 (PDT), vk3...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> >> The young generally didnt give a shit about anything other than sound
> >> >> bytes with zip data backing those sound bytes up.
>
> >> >> Meism and Nowism along with Cliche politics is more their forte.
>
> >> >> Gunner
>
> >> >Well, yes - agree. They have largely given up, they have seen their
> >> >elders engage in endless vituperative debate, and nothing happens
> >> >except things get worse..why should they give a rats arse about the
> >> >dinosaurs, thrashing around, making lots of noise, but basically doing
> >> >nothing except blaming "someone else"....so, can opening themselves,
> >> >listening to sound bites, me too isms - desperately hoping, without
> >> >any real conviction, that someone will offer hope and inspiration, not
> >> >just more lies and broken promises.........
>
> >> >$4 gas is the least of our problems.....
>
> >> Given up? The little skulls filled with mush never started. They were
> >> educated to be leftards..which took too much effort so they have
> >> simply become semimoble couch potatos who bow to the latest fashion
> >> trends which make them all look the same, with little incentive to do
> >> anything other than fuck, get drunk and have a ready supply of
> >> ringtones to download.
>
> >> Gunner
>
> > And here we see a rare agreement between my views and Gunner's.
> > BOTH liberals and the right were
> > involved in the deceptive "re-engineering"
> > of our educational system over a period of
> > decades starting over 100 years ago.
>
> > Real education, it was decided,
> > was for the elite classes and
> > what was needed was a system
> > of "socialization" and indoctrination
> > to produce happy non-thinking
> > obedient worker drones
> > and cannon fodder for the military.
>
> The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people making it,
> including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this "indoctrinating
> educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy non-thinking
> obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.
>
> It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are; complaints
> about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that nearly
> everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe education hasn't
> hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow, they've
> escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
"Spare yourself the anxiety of thinking of this
school thing as a conspiracy, even though the
project is indeed riddled with petty conspirators.
It was and is a fully rational transaction in which
all of us play a part. We trade the liberty of our
kids and our free will for a secure social order
and a very prosperous economy. It's a bargain
in which most of us agree to become as children
ourselves, under the same tutelage which holds
the young, in exchange for food, entertainment,
and safety. The difficulty is that the contract fixes
the goal of human life so low that students go
mad trying to escape it."
Quoted from "The Underground History of American Education"
by John Taylor Gatto.
We are all prodcuts of some system or other
but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
to escape the zombification process and become
real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
the process is accelerated.
Citizen Jimserac
|
|
Posted by Ed Huntress on April 21, 2008, 9:29 am
Please log in for more thread options
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:09:54 -0700 (PDT), vk3...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >> >> The young generally didnt give a shit about anything other than
>> >> >> sound
>> >> >> bytes with zip data backing those sound bytes up.
>>
>> >> >> Meism and Nowism along with Cliche politics is more their forte.
>>
>> >> >> Gunner
>>
>> >> >Well, yes - agree. They have largely given up, they have seen their
>> >> >elders engage in endless vituperative debate, and nothing happens
>> >> >except things get worse..why should they give a rats arse about the
>> >> >dinosaurs, thrashing around, making lots of noise, but basically
>> >> >doing
>> >> >nothing except blaming "someone else"....so, can opening themselves,
>> >> >listening to sound bites, me too isms - desperately hoping, without
>> >> >any real conviction, that someone will offer hope and inspiration,
>> >> >not
>> >> >just more lies and broken promises.........
>>
>> >> >$4 gas is the least of our problems.....
>>
>> >> Given up? The little skulls filled with mush never started. They were
>> >> educated to be leftards..which took too much effort so they have
>> >> simply become semimoble couch potatos who bow to the latest fashion
>> >> trends which make them all look the same, with little incentive to do
>> >> anything other than fuck, get drunk and have a ready supply of
>> >> ringtones to download.
>>
>> >> Gunner
>>
>> > And here we see a rare agreement between my views and Gunner's.
>> > BOTH liberals and the right were
>> > involved in the deceptive "re-engineering"
>> > of our educational system over a period of
>> > decades starting over 100 years ago.
>>
>> > Real education, it was decided,
>> > was for the elite classes and
>> > what was needed was a system
>> > of "socialization" and indoctrination
>> > to produce happy non-thinking
>> > obedient worker drones
>> > and cannon fodder for the military.
>>
>> The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people making it,
>> including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this
>> "indoctrinating
>> educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy non-thinking
>> obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.
>>
>> It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are;
>> complaints
>> about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that nearly
>> everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe education
>> hasn't
>> hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow, they've
>> escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>
> "Spare yourself the anxiety of thinking of this
> school thing as a conspiracy, even though the
> project is indeed riddled with petty conspirators.
> It was and is a fully rational transaction in which
> all of us play a part. We trade the liberty of our
> kids and our free will for a secure social order
> and a very prosperous economy. It's a bargain
> in which most of us agree to become as children
> ourselves, under the same tutelage which holds
> the young, in exchange for food, entertainment,
> and safety. The difficulty is that the contract fixes
> the goal of human life so low that students go
> mad trying to escape it."
> Quoted from "The Underground History of American Education"
> by John Taylor Gatto.
Gatto wrote an article for _Harper's_ a few years ago, which supposedly
summarized his argument. I remember thinking at the time that it sounded
like elaborated and generalized grumbling; the Prussian connection was
evidence of nothing much, IMO, as education has always been a kind of
socialization, and the Prussian model just happened to be the one that was
widely admired at the time American public education was becoming
generalized.
The trouble with Gatto's complaint, as well as most complaints about
education, is that the complaints all tend to sound the same, but the
solutions are all contradictory. The complaints are that we know too little,
that we think too little, or that we're unable to learn anything except what
we're spoon-fed. The solutions are that we spend too little time in school;
we spend too much time in school (Gatto's position). School is too
permissive; school is too authoritarian. We spend too much time teaching by
rote; we don't require kids to commit to memory the foundations of western
thought.
And on, and on, and on. No two critics see the problem in the same way, and
few offer remedies that aren't contradicting the *last* remedy that someone
published.
All they have in common is that they don't like what's going on. They all
seem to have a utopian vision of what education should be, but their utopias
contradict each other.
It makes one skeptical about the whole enterprise.
>
> We are all prodcuts of some system or other
> but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
> to escape the zombification process and become
> real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
> and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
> the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
> the process is accelerated.
>
> Citizen Jimserac
That sounds like a retread of most complaints about education we've been
hearing for 50 years or more. Now it's the Internet. Good luck.
--
Ed Huntress
|
|
Posted by Hawke on April 22, 2008, 12:48 am
Please log in for more thread options > >>
> >> >> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:09:54 -0700 (PDT), vk3...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >> The young generally didnt give a shit about anything other than
> >> >> >> sound
> >> >> >> bytes with zip data backing those sound bytes up.
> >>
> >> >> >> Meism and Nowism along with Cliche politics is more their forte.
> >>
> >> >> >> Gunner
> >>
> >> >> >Well, yes - agree. They have largely given up, they have seen their
> >> >> >elders engage in endless vituperative debate, and nothing happens
> >> >> >except things get worse..why should they give a rats arse about the
> >> >> >dinosaurs, thrashing around, making lots of noise, but basically
> >> >> >doing
> >> >> >nothing except blaming "someone else"....so, can opening
themselves,
> >> >> >listening to sound bites, me too isms - desperately hoping, without
> >> >> >any real conviction, that someone will offer hope and inspiration,
> >> >> >not
> >> >> >just more lies and broken promises.........
> >>
> >> >> >$4 gas is the least of our problems.....
> >>
> >> >> Given up? The little skulls filled with mush never started. They
were
> >> >> educated to be leftards..which took too much effort so they have
> >> >> simply become semimoble couch potatos who bow to the latest fashion
> >> >> trends which make them all look the same, with little incentive to
do
> >> >> anything other than fuck, get drunk and have a ready supply of
> >> >> ringtones to download.
> >>
> >> >> Gunner
> >>
> >> > And here we see a rare agreement between my views and Gunner's.
> >> > BOTH liberals and the right were
> >> > involved in the deceptive "re-engineering"
> >> > of our educational system over a period of
> >> > decades starting over 100 years ago.
> >>
> >> > Real education, it was decided,
> >> > was for the elite classes and
> >> > what was needed was a system
> >> > of "socialization" and indoctrination
> >> > to produce happy non-thinking
> >> > obedient worker drones
> >> > and cannon fodder for the military.
> >>
> >> The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people making
it,
> >> including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this
> >> "indoctrinating
> >> educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy
non-thinking
> >> obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.
> >>
> >> It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are;
> >> complaints
> >> about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that nearly
> >> everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe education
> >> hasn't
> >> hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow, they've
> >> escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ed Huntress
> >
> > "Spare yourself the anxiety of thinking of this
> > school thing as a conspiracy, even though the
> > project is indeed riddled with petty conspirators.
> > It was and is a fully rational transaction in which
> > all of us play a part. We trade the liberty of our
> > kids and our free will for a secure social order
> > and a very prosperous economy. It's a bargain
> > in which most of us agree to become as children
> > ourselves, under the same tutelage which holds
> > the young, in exchange for food, entertainment,
> > and safety. The difficulty is that the contract fixes
> > the goal of human life so low that students go
> > mad trying to escape it."
> > Quoted from "The Underground History of American Education"
> > by John Taylor Gatto.
>
> Gatto wrote an article for _Harper's_ a few years ago, which supposedly
> summarized his argument. I remember thinking at the time that it sounded
> like elaborated and generalized grumbling; the Prussian connection was
> evidence of nothing much, IMO, as education has always been a kind of
> socialization, and the Prussian model just happened to be the one that was
> widely admired at the time American public education was becoming
> generalized.
>
> The trouble with Gatto's complaint, as well as most complaints about
> education, is that the complaints all tend to sound the same, but the
> solutions are all contradictory. The complaints are that we know too
little,
> that we think too little, or that we're unable to learn anything except
what
> we're spoon-fed. The solutions are that we spend too little time in
school;
> we spend too much time in school (Gatto's position). School is too
> permissive; school is too authoritarian. We spend too much time teaching
by
> rote; we don't require kids to commit to memory the foundations of western
> thought.
>
> And on, and on, and on. No two critics see the problem in the same way,
and
> few offer remedies that aren't contradicting the *last* remedy that
someone
> published.
>
> All they have in common is that they don't like what's going on. They all
> seem to have a utopian vision of what education should be, but their
utopias
> contradict each other.
>
> It makes one skeptical about the whole enterprise.
>
> >
> > We are all prodcuts of some system or other
> > but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
> > to escape the zombification process and become
> > real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
> > and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
> > the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
> > the process is accelerated.
> >
> > Citizen Jimserac
>
> That sounds like a retread of most complaints about education we've been
> hearing for 50 years or more. Now it's the Internet. Good luck.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
I think the complainers have forgotten what we had before the adoption of
universal public education. It used to be that everyone was ignorant and
illiterate except for a tiny minority of elites that were able to pay for a
private education or tutoring. When it was decided that everyone would
benefit from universal education some kind of system where all children were
to be "educated" had to be chosen. For many years the system we had was the
envy of the world and was unquestionably the best system invented to educate
the children of an entire nation. Now it's charged with doing the same job
for a country of 300 million with a huge number of children of different
countries speaking different languages as well an underclass and a huge
income disparity to deal with. All in all it's still doing a rather
remarkable job. In addition, if you look at what the statistics are when you
take out blacks and Hispanics you find that the system is excellent. An
objective view shows that the minorities throw the stats way out of whack by
pulling down the averages for the whole system. What's ironic is that the
minorities take the least advantage of our free system and by all accounts
they would benefit the most from it. What's that saying about advice most
needed is advice least heeded? Those who need it the most use it the least.
No wonder the system appears broken. I think it's not the system that's
flawed but the children who are in it.
Hawke
|
|
Posted by Ed Huntress on April 22, 2008, 1:48 am
Please log in for more thread options
>> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:09:54 -0700 (PDT), vk3...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> >> The young generally didnt give a shit about anything other than
>> >> >> >> sound
>> >> >> >> bytes with zip data backing those sound bytes up.
>> >>
>> >> >> >> Meism and Nowism along with Cliche politics is more their forte.
>> >>
>> >> >> >> Gunner
>> >>
>> >> >> >Well, yes - agree. They have largely given up, they have seen
>> >> >> >their
>> >> >> >elders engage in endless vituperative debate, and nothing happens
>> >> >> >except things get worse..why should they give a rats arse about
>> >> >> >the
>> >> >> >dinosaurs, thrashing around, making lots of noise, but basically
>> >> >> >doing
>> >> >> >nothing except blaming "someone else"....so, can opening
> themselves,
>> >> >> >listening to sound bites, me too isms - desperately hoping,
>> >> >> >without
>> >> >> >any real conviction, that someone will offer hope and inspiration,
>> >> >> >not
>> >> >> >just more lies and broken promises.........
>> >>
>> >> >> >$4 gas is the least of our problems.....
>> >>
>> >> >> Given up? The little skulls filled with mush never started. They
> were
>> >> >> educated to be leftards..which took too much effort so they have
>> >> >> simply become semimoble couch potatos who bow to the latest fashion
>> >> >> trends which make them all look the same, with little incentive to
> do
>> >> >> anything other than fuck, get drunk and have a ready supply of
>> >> >> ringtones to download.
>> >>
>> >> >> Gunner
>> >>
>> >> > And here we see a rare agreement between my views and Gunner's.
>> >> > BOTH liberals and the right were
>> >> > involved in the deceptive "re-engineering"
>> >> > of our educational system over a period of
>> >> > decades starting over 100 years ago.
>> >>
>> >> > Real education, it was decided,
>> >> > was for the elite classes and
>> >> > what was needed was a system
>> >> > of "socialization" and indoctrination
>> >> > to produce happy non-thinking
>> >> > obedient worker drones
>> >> > and cannon fodder for the military.
>> >>
>> >> The logical problem with this kind of claim is that the people making
> it,
>> >> including Gunner and, perhaps, you, are all products of this
>> >> "indoctrinating
>> >> educational system." Presumably you then are either a happy
> non-thinking
>> >> obedient worker drone, or cannon fodder.
>> >>
>> >> It's clear that most people are aware of what the problems are;
>> >> complaints
>> >> about education are nearly universal, so it's safe to say that nearly
>> >> everyone else recognizes the same things that you do. Maybe education
>> >> hasn't
>> >> hurt them none; they can read the writing on the wall. Somehow,
>> >> they've
>> >> escaped the grand conspiracy to turn them into mindless drones.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Ed Huntress
>> >
>> > "Spare yourself the anxiety of thinking of this
>> > school thing as a conspiracy, even though the
>> > project is indeed riddled with petty conspirators.
>> > It was and is a fully rational transaction in which
>> > all of us play a part. We trade the liberty of our
>> > kids and our free will for a secure social order
>> > and a very prosperous economy. It's a bargain
>> > in which most of us agree to become as children
>> > ourselves, under the same tutelage which holds
>> > the young, in exchange for food, entertainment,
>> > and safety. The difficulty is that the contract fixes
>> > the goal of human life so low that students go
>> > mad trying to escape it."
>> > Quoted from "The Underground History of American Education"
>> > by John Taylor Gatto.
>>
>> Gatto wrote an article for _Harper's_ a few years ago, which supposedly
>> summarized his argument. I remember thinking at the time that it sounded
>> like elaborated and generalized grumbling; the Prussian connection was
>> evidence of nothing much, IMO, as education has always been a kind of
>> socialization, and the Prussian model just happened to be the one that
>> was
>> widely admired at the time American public education was becoming
>> generalized.
>>
>> The trouble with Gatto's complaint, as well as most complaints about
>> education, is that the complaints all tend to sound the same, but the
>> solutions are all contradictory. The complaints are that we know too
> little,
>> that we think too little, or that we're unable to learn anything except
> what
>> we're spoon-fed. The solutions are that we spend too little time in
> school;
>> we spend too much time in school (Gatto's position). School is too
>> permissive; school is too authoritarian. We spend too much time teaching
> by
>> rote; we don't require kids to commit to memory the foundations of
>> western
>> thought.
>>
>> And on, and on, and on. No two critics see the problem in the same way,
> and
>> few offer remedies that aren't contradicting the *last* remedy that
> someone
>> published.
>>
>> All they have in common is that they don't like what's going on. They all
>> seem to have a utopian vision of what education should be, but their
> utopias
>> contradict each other.
>>
>> It makes one skeptical about the whole enterprise.
>>
>> >
>> > We are all prodcuts of some system or other
>> > but there are enough misfits, loners and individualists
>> > to escape the zombification process and become
>> > real thinking human beings. Plenty have done it
>> > and, with the incredibly liberating power of the Internet,
>> > the medium in which we are now having this exchange,
>> > the process is accelerated.
>> >
>> > Citizen Jimserac
>>
>> That sounds like a retread of most complaints about education we've been
>> hearing for 50 years or more. Now it's the Internet. Good luck.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>
>
> I think the complainers have forgotten what we had before the adoption of
> universal public education. It used to be that everyone was ignorant and
> illiterate except for a tiny minority of elites that were able to pay for
> a
> private education or tutoring. When it was decided that everyone would
> benefit from universal education some kind of system where all children
> were
> to be "educated" had to be chosen. For many years the system we had was
> the
> envy of the world and was unquestionably the best system invented to
> educate
> the children of an entire nation. Now it's charged with doing the same job
> for a country of 300 million with a huge number of children of different
> countries speaking different languages as well an underclass and a huge
> income disparity to deal with. All in all it's still doing a rather
> remarkable job. In addition, if you look at what the statistics are when
> you
> take out blacks and Hispanics you find that the system is excellent. An
> objective view shows that the minorities throw the stats way out of whack
> by
> pulling down the averages for the whole system. What's ironic is that the
> minorities take the least advantage of our free system and by all accounts
> they would benefit the most from it. What's that saying about advice most
> needed is advice least heeded? Those who need it the most use it the
> least.
> No wonder the system appears broken. I think it's not the system that's
> flawed but the children who are in it.
>
> Hawke
Without checking the numbers and some of the facts, I'd say that sounds
about right on the surface. Asian-Americans seem to do very well indeed with
our educational system. It must be good for some people...maybe the ones who
have family support and motivation.
--
Ed Huntress
|
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> bottom line about our education system? Overall, it's damn good. It's true
> I
> didn't go to any ghetto schools, but I went to schools all over California
> and the thing I found in all of them was that it was really up to the
> student what you got out of it. If you wanted a good education you were
> able
> to get one. From personal experience I know it's that way. If you don't
> want
> to try then they system looks lousy. But if your really want an education
> you can get a good one and it's a real bargain. So when I hear people say
> the system sucks it just tells me they don't know what they are talking
> about. Either that or when they had their chance they were too lazy or too
> stupid to benefit from the great deal they had at their fingertips.
>
> Hawke