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Posted by DoN. Nichols on April 8, 2008, 7:22 pm
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>
[ ... ]
>> > Man does Kennametal have a big catalog. What I didn't see was a
>> > comparison of the advantages and disadvantages of the various methods of
>> > holding inserts.
>>
>> Typically, I think that you pick a system which matches what you
>> already have. At least that is what I did -- starting with a couple of
>> good holder from eBay auctions along with 100 matching inserts for each. :-)
>
> I'm leaning towards buying new, not wanting to wait a year to get lucky.
> Now you know that the day after I order the new item, three fine used
> items will turn up on eBay, for a third the price.
O.K. That will get you started anyway. :-) My preference
(starting new) would be to get the BXA-16N (negative rake) with
positive/negative inserts for it, and then get the straight pointed ones
(and perhaps other tools) for the same inserts. You'll need something
different for threading inserts anyway. For those, I prefer the laydown
tools to the stand-up ones -- easier to adjust for pitch angle with
anvils.
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
|
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Posted by Joseph Gwinn on April 8, 2008, 11:17 pm
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> >
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >> > Man does Kennametal have a big catalog. What I didn't see was a
> >> > comparison of the advantages and disadvantages of the various methods of
> >> > holding inserts.
> >>
> >> Typically, I think that you pick a system which matches what you
> >> already have. At least that is what I did -- starting with a couple of
> >> good holder from eBay auctions along with 100 matching inserts for each.
> >> :-)
> >
> > I'm leaning towards buying new, not wanting to wait a year to get lucky.
> > Now you know that the day after I order the new item, three fine used
> > items will turn up on eBay, for a third the price.
>
> O.K. That will get you started anyway. :-) My preference
> (starting new) would be to get the BXA-16N (negative rake) with
> positive/negative inserts for it, and then get the straight pointed ones
> (and perhaps other tools) for the same inserts. You'll need something
> different for threading inserts anyway. For those, I prefer the laydown
> tools to the stand-up ones -- easier to adjust for pitch angle with
> anvils.
The main holdup is pure confusion. I've been looking at catalogs, and
it isn't a good idea. Too many choices.
You suggested BXA-16N with MSC stock number 07080062, which is TNMG-322
C6 TIN, for $3.84 apiece. How well does the insert fit the holder?
TNMG has a central hole, and perhaps a complex shape, while the BXA-16N
was designed for a simple flat triangle with perpendicular sides.
Another question is if spending more money gets better performance, or
perhaps resistance to failure under stress and shock. Carbide inserts
seem to vary from $4 to almost $30 apiece, with time off for good
behavior.
Joe Gwinn
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|
Posted by DoN. Nichols on April 9, 2008, 12:32 am
Please log in for more thread options >
>> >
[ ... ]
>> > I'm leaning towards buying new, not wanting to wait a year to get lucky.
>> > Now you know that the day after I order the new item, three fine used
>> > items will turn up on eBay, for a third the price.
>>
>> O.K. That will get you started anyway. :-) My preference
>> (starting new) would be to get the BXA-16N (negative rake) with
>> positive/negative inserts for it, and then get the straight pointed ones
>> (and perhaps other tools) for the same inserts. You'll need something
>> different for threading inserts anyway. For those, I prefer the laydown
>> tools to the stand-up ones -- easier to adjust for pitch angle with
>> anvils.
>
> The main holdup is pure confusion. I've been looking at catalogs, and
> it isn't a good idea. Too many choices.
:-)
> You suggested BXA-16N with MSC stock number 07080062, which is TNMG-322
> C6 TIN, for $3.84 apiece. How well does the insert fit the holder?
It fits it perfectly.
> TNMG has a central hole, and perhaps a complex shape, while the BXA-16N
> was designed for a simple flat triangle with perpendicular sides.
The BXA-16N has a flat screw which holds the anvil in place, and
a clamp/chipbreaker which holds the insert in place. There is an
alternate screw which has a cylindrical projection above the head if you
really want to use the center hole -- but I haven't bothered using
anything other than what came with the BXA-16N.
> Another question is if spending more money gets better performance, or
> perhaps resistance to failure under stress and shock. Carbide inserts
> seem to vary from $4 to almost $30 apiece, with time off for good
> behavior.
Some of that is a function of how many of them they make. The
TNMG is a very common style, and the BXA-16N uses a very common size, so
there are lots of them made. And -- it is the same size that my
straight holders have. The straight holders have the pin on the head,
and have less of a hold-down. It is a finger which swings over the area
around the pin and clamps down. But both tools use the same inserts.
which is a benefit when you are buying ten or twenty at a time.
There are special shapes, such as the 55 degree diamond which
does a better job of reaching into a narrow space, and can be set to
both turn and face with the same setting -- just different faces of the
insert. Some of these days I'll get a diamond holder to use with the
PCD diamond holders which I already have (on non-ferrous metals only, of
course).
There are also differing coatings -- from none on the bare
carbide to TiN to -- what is it? A purpleish coating over the TiN. Each
of these does better when cutting harder material faster. Then there
are the Ceramics and the CBN (Cubic Boron Nitride) which do better on
much harder materials -- but which might be more subject to shock from
interrupted cuts. You don't go to these unless you need them for
production. I don't have them. (I would like to play with them, but
... :-)
Other coatings are better to avoid gumming up with soft aluminum
alloys. Stick with something like 6061T6 and you should not need them.
Lubricate the 6061T6 with kerosene or WD-40 (whichever is more
convenient to apply. ;-)
The BXA-16N and the inserts which I suggested are a good general
purpose selection. Go with that -- and worry about others when you
discover that you need them -- such as when turning a lot of already
hardened 4140 for example. :-)
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
|
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Posted by Joseph Gwinn on April 9, 2008, 11:18 am
Please log in for more thread options
> >
> >> >
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >> > I'm leaning towards buying new, not wanting to wait a year to get lucky.
> >> >
> >> > Now you know that the day after I order the new item, three fine used
> >> > items will turn up on eBay, for a third the price.
> >>
> >> O.K. That will get you started anyway. :-) My preference
> >> (starting new) would be to get the BXA-16N (negative rake) with
> >> positive/negative inserts for it, and then get the straight pointed ones
> >> (and perhaps other tools) for the same inserts. You'll need something
> >> different for threading inserts anyway. For those, I prefer the laydown
> >> tools to the stand-up ones -- easier to adjust for pitch angle with
> >> anvils.
> >
> > The main holdup is pure confusion. I've been looking at catalogs, and
> > it isn't a good idea. Too many choices.
>
> :-)
>
> > You suggested BXA-16N with MSC stock number 07080062, which is TNMG-322
> > C6 TIN, for $3.84 apiece. How well does the insert fit the holder?
>
> It fits it perfectly.
>
> > TNMG has a central hole, and perhaps a complex shape, while the BXA-16N
> > was designed for a simple flat triangle with perpendicular sides.
>
> The BXA-16N has a flat screw which holds the anvil in place, and
> a clamp/chipbreaker which holds the insert in place. There is an
> alternate screw which has a cylindrical projection above the head if you
> really want to use the center hole -- but I haven't bothered using
> anything other than what came with the BXA-16N.
OK.
> > Another question is if spending more money gets better performance, or
> > perhaps resistance to failure under stress and shock. Carbide inserts
> > seem to vary from $4 to almost $30 apiece, with time off for good
> > behavior.
>
> Some of that is a function of how many of them they make. The
> TNMG is a very common style, and the BXA-16N uses a very common size, so
> there are lots of them made. And -- it is the same size that my
> straight holders have. The straight holders have the pin on the head,
> and have less of a hold-down. It is a finger which swings over the area
> around the pin and clamps down. But both tools use the same inserts.
> which is a benefit when you are buying ten or twenty at a time.
>
> There are special shapes, such as the 55 degree diamond which
> does a better job of reaching into a narrow space, and can be set to
> both turn and face with the same setting -- just different faces of the
> insert. Some of these days I'll get a diamond holder to use with the
> PCD diamond holders which I already have (on non-ferrous metals only, of
> course).
That raises a question: How do the triange inserts differ from the 80
degree inserts? I notice that Aloris offers holders for both, being the
16 and 16N for triangles, and 12 and 12N for the 80-degree inserts. I
would guess that the 80 degree inserts are stronger.
> There are also differing coatings -- from none on the bare
> carbide to TiN to -- what is it? A purpleish coating over the TiN. Each
> of these does better when cutting harder material faster. Then there
> are the Ceramics and the CBN (Cubic Boron Nitride) which do better on
> much harder materials -- but which might be more subject to shock from
> interrupted cuts. You don't go to these unless you need them for
> production. I don't have them. (I would like to play with them, but
> ... :-)
>
> Other coatings are better to avoid gumming up with soft aluminum
> alloys. Stick with something like 6061T6 and you should not need them.
> Lubricate the 6061T6 with kerosene or WD-40 (whichever is more
> convenient to apply. ;-)
On the mill and drill press, Rustlick WS-5050 works very well.
> The BXA-16N and the inserts which I suggested are a good general
> purpose selection. Go with that -- and worry about others when you
> discover that you need them -- such as when turning a lot of already
> hardened 4140 for example. :-)
OK. Although I may also get the alternate screw with pin.
Joe Gwinn
|
|
Posted by DoN. Nichols on April 10, 2008, 12:26 am
Please log in for more thread options >
[ ... ]
>> > TNMG has a central hole, and perhaps a complex shape, while the BXA-16N
>> > was designed for a simple flat triangle with perpendicular sides.
>>
>> The BXA-16N has a flat screw which holds the anvil in place, and
>> a clamp/chipbreaker which holds the insert in place. There is an
>> alternate screw which has a cylindrical projection above the head if you
>> really want to use the center hole -- but I haven't bothered using
>> anything other than what came with the BXA-16N.
>
> OK.
[ ... ]
>> There are special shapes, such as the 55 degree diamond which
>> does a better job of reaching into a narrow space, and can be set to
>> both turn and face with the same setting -- just different faces of the
>> insert. Some of these days I'll get a diamond holder to use with the
>> PCD diamond holders which I already have (on non-ferrous metals only, of
>> course).
>
> That raises a question: How do the triange inserts differ from the 80
> degree inserts? I notice that Aloris offers holders for both, being the
> 16 and 16N for triangles, and 12 and 12N for the 80-degree inserts. I
> would guess that the 80 degree inserts are stronger.
I would expect so. A bit more difficulty working in deep
corners, but stronger for harder materials. Not likely to be something
which you need for hobby metalworking.
Here is an example of a shank which would accept those inserts,
but which is too big for our machines:
ebay 380015167655
but the photos will show you what the clamp is like on those -- which
use the pin-head screws.
Beware that many have 1x1" square shanks and thus are poor
choices for our machines. Look for 5/8" square shanks instead for our
machines.
This one is closer, with a 3/4" shank -- which can be milled
down to 5/8" on a horizontal mill. Not as sure about a vertical mill,
however. Of course, none of these are the straight-ahead ones which I
got with 100 inserts each some years ago. The photo shows the clamp
clearly, the head of the pin-head screw, and the anvil under the insert.
These were found with a search for:
TNMG inserts carbide
without bothering to specify the size.
[ ... ]
>> Other coatings are better to avoid gumming up with soft aluminum
>> alloys. Stick with something like 6061T6 and you should not need them.
>> Lubricate the 6061T6 with kerosene or WD-40 (whichever is more
>> convenient to apply. ;-)
>
> On the mill and drill press, Rustlick WS-5050 works very well.
Good to know.
>> The BXA-16N and the inserts which I suggested are a good general
>> purpose selection. Go with that -- and worry about others when you
>> discover that you need them -- such as when turning a lot of already
>> hardened 4140 for example. :-)
>
> OK. Although I may also get the alternate screw with pin.
O.K. But you really don't need it with the chipbreaker style
clamp that the BXA-16N uses. Try the holder and inserts first and only
if you have troubles bother to order the pin-head screws (whatever the
actual vendors call them. :-)
Enjoy,
DoN.
--
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
|
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