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Posted by Spehro Pefhany on April 14, 2008, 10:23 am
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>
>>And how would that keep from "pricing them out of a job," against foreign
>>low-wage competition, Jon? After NAFTA, a lot of plants moved to Mexico,
>>where they were (at the time) paying $1.10/hour. It's a bit higher than that
>>now ($1.70/hour?). And as China opened up, a fairly long list of US plants
>>that had moved to Mexico picked up and moved to China. The Mexicans had
>>"priced themselves out of a job" at $1.70/hour.
>
>Somehow I think China is going to price themselves out of a job and some
>work will flow back to Mexico. Maybe we well get a few scraps out of it.
>
>Wes
They have a billion or so folks to employ who would like to leave the
countryside behind-- it might take a while-- and it depends on whether
they *want* to keep doing that sort of work rather than graduate to
higher level stuff. Their domestic market is so big and lucrative that
already it's drawing a lot of the talent from export-oriented
industries.
There are a LOT of places (80 different countries by PPP GDP) with
cheaper labor than China- Vietnam, Bangladesh, India etc.. and some
with substantial populations, but the infrastrucure (and maybe the
culture) is not there yet to support many types of manufacturing.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
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Posted by The Davenport's on April 14, 2008, 6:58 pm
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>>>> So you do not believe in supporting your local economy?????
>>>>
>>>> I don't think he said that at all...
>>>>
>>>> ...I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your constant
>>>> dribbling/foaming at the mouth.
>>>>
>>>> As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I
>>>> trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV and
>>>> toaster and, well, you get the point.
>>>>
>>>> Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you...
>>>>
>>>> THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by
>>>> demanding more for the job than it was worth.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>
>>> And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what
>>> it's worth?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ed Huntress
>>
>> I'm not trying to say that the jobs should only be worth $0.80 an hour.
>>
>> I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM
>> plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of line.
>> Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the last 35
>> years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few bolts? GM,
>> Ford and the UAW seem to think so.
>>
>> Mike
>
> So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so
> they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be
> made here again instead of in China?
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do
NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually,
just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does the
other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled tradesman/woman
gets paid.
The line worker not only doesn't make decisions, they CAN'T because that
isn't the way GM/Ford/whoever works. Light bulb burns out on your work
station/desk...call the repair shop, because if you screw in your own light
bulb, you will be given time off....do it again, you may get fired...which
seems to be the only way anyone can be fired there.
I am NOT saying that they should be paid peanuts....it's a boring ass job,
for the most part, and it isn't the best working conditions, but I've worked
in worse.
No, I don't work there, nor have I ever worked there...I do, however, spend
a lot of time there doing repairs to machinery that their "skilled trades
department" can't figure out.
Mike
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Posted by Ed Huntress on April 14, 2008, 7:43 pm
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>>>>> So you do not believe in supporting your local economy?????
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think he said that at all...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...I think he's just a little more than a little tired of your
>>>>> constant dribbling/foaming at the mouth.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to your original statement about spending it where you make it, I
>>>>> trust that means that you'll be giving up your computer and your TV
>>>>> and toaster and, well, you get the point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or maybe you don't...I'll spell it out for you...
>>>>>
>>>>> THEY DON'T MAKE THEM HERE ANYMORE
>>>>>
>>>>> Why?
>>>>>
>>>>> Among other things, the unions priced themselves out of jobs by
>>>>> demanding more for the job than it was worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> And what's it worth, Mike? The Chinese charge $0.80/hour. Is that what
>>>> it's worth?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to say that the jobs should only be worth $0.80 an hour.
>>>
>>> I do believe that the $35.00 PLUS to start that they get at the local GM
>>> plant to bolt a freaking bumper on a truck is just a TAD bit out of
>>> line. Can you say that the craft that I've worked at learning for the
>>> last 35 years or so is worth less than what it takes to drive a few
>>> bolts? GM, Ford and the UAW seem to think so.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>
>> So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so
>> they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be
>> made here again instead of in China?
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>
> Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I do
> NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and actually,
> just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the line does
> the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled
> tradesman/woman gets paid.
Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently
has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to keep
their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they *should* be
paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no one has given
me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much should it be?
>
> The line worker not only doesn't make decisions, they CAN'T because that
> isn't the way GM/Ford/whoever works. Light bulb burns out on your work
> station/desk...call the repair shop, because if you screw in your own
> light bulb, you will be given time off....do it again, you may get
> fired...which seems to be the only way anyone can be fired there.
>
> I am NOT saying that they should be paid peanuts....it's a boring ass job,
> for the most part, and it isn't the best working conditions, but I've
> worked in worse.
>
> No, I don't work there, nor have I ever worked there...I do, however,
> spend a lot of time there doing repairs to machinery that their "skilled
> trades department" can't figure out.
All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they
don't price themselves out of the globalized market?
--
Ed Huntress
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Posted by The Davenport's on April 14, 2008, 8:11 pm
Please log in for more thread options >>> So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be paid so
>>> they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that things will be
>>> made here again instead of in China?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ed Huntress
>>
>> Ed, I think that you're still missing my point, and the point is that I
>> do NOT believe that someone that bolts the bumper on a truck...and
>> actually, just half the bumper because someone on the other side of the
>> line does the other side...should be paid twice the wages that a skilled
>> tradesman/woman gets paid.
>
> Yeah, you said that, that your sense of propriety and fairness apparently
> has been offended, and that's somehow tied into what labor has to do to
> keep their jobs from going overseas. And I'm asking you how much they
> *should* be paid, so that they don't price themselves out of a job, and no
> one has given me an answer that actually will save those jobs. How much
> should it be?
>
OK...maybe I was wrong...you didn't miss my point, you seem to be ignoring
it...
OK...How much should the jobs be worth? How does 2/3 the prevailing wages
for skilled trades in the area? So here in south central Wisconsin, that
would put the bumper-bolter at making a little under $13.50usd
>>
>> The line worker not only doesn't make decisions, they CAN'T because that
>> isn't the way GM/Ford/whoever works. Light bulb burns out on your work
>> station/desk...call the repair shop, because if you screw in your own
>> light bulb, you will be given time off....do it again, you may get
>> fired...which seems to be the only way anyone can be fired there.
>>
>> I am NOT saying that they should be paid peanuts....it's a boring ass
>> job, for the most part, and it isn't the best working conditions, but
>> I've worked in worse.
>>
>> No, I don't work there, nor have I ever worked there...I do, however,
>> spend a lot of time there doing repairs to machinery that their "skilled
>> trades department" can't figure out.
>
> All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid so they
> don't price themselves out of the globalized market?
>
> --
> Ed Huntress
And can you honestly say that over the top wage demands by unions had NO
impact on the jobs going away?
I wasn't trying to say that that was the only reason, but it was a
contributing factor, along with the work rules and the owners/stockholders
being greedy.
And let us not forget the American people, bless their little hearts, for
thinking that saving a few bucks on that color TV wasn't going to have any
effect on the world...right up until you couldn't find an American made TV
anymore.
Mike
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Posted by John R. Carroll on April 14, 2008, 8:28 pm
Please log in for more thread options The Davenport's wrote:
>>>> So, what's the correct wage for them, Mike? How much can they be
>>>> paid so they won't be "pricing themselves out of a job," so that
>>>> things will be made here again instead of in China?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ed Huntress
>>>
>> All very nice, Mike. Now, I'll ask again: what should they be paid
>> so they don't price themselves out of the globalized market?
>>
>> --
>> Ed Huntress
>
> And can you honestly say that over the top wage demands by unions had
> NO impact on the jobs going away?
No, not really. The only way to compete with chinese labor is to work for
what Chjinese laborers will work for, all things else being even.
>
> I wasn't trying to say that that was the only reason, but it was a
> contributing factor, along with the work rules and the
> owners/stockholders being greedy.
You are confusing greed with what you practice in your every day life and
call common sense.
>
> And let us not forget the American people, bless their little hearts,
> for thinking that saving a few bucks on that color TV wasn't going to
> have any effect on the world...right up until you couldn't find an
> American made TV anymore.
You two can have a sensible conversation about this only when you are
willing to talk about value added by labor and acceptable living standards.
The question that needs to be asked and answered is this one:
What would an auto workers job have to look like to be able to pay him
enough to have a decent standard of living. Lowering his or her wage to
reflect the value they currently add is meaningless. There is an answer to
that question, however, and the answer is - whatever the cheapest labor rate
is in the world.
Everything else is just hoo haa.
--
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
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