Wall wart current draw

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Subject Author Date
Wall wart current draw Siggy 04-08-2006
Posted by Spehro Pefhany on April 8, 2006, 5:55 pm
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On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 20:35:17 GMT, the renowned "Siggy"

>A while back there was a discussion about why wall wart transformers that
>were not under load would draw no current. Anyone recall that thread? As I
>recall there were some references to the induced currents created by
>collapsing magnetic fields etc.
>
>Anyway, I'm trying to either prove or disprove the statement that unplugging
>wall warts when not actually using them to power or re-charge your device
>will save electricity. My recollection is that it doesn't matter. Right or
>wrong?

It does matter. Just put your hand on an energized wall-wart which
isn't plugged into anything and you'll feel warmth- losses which are
typically in the 1-4W range. The Asian wall-wart sweatshops use about
the cheapest of materials, particularly the laminations, and push them
to the limits of saturation (meaning they don't use any more material
than absolutely necessary), so there is substantial loss. Using better
magnetic alloys would push the cost up perhaps 10-20%, so it's not
done.

California is supposed to be enacting a regulation mid-this year wot
prohibits sale of new gadgets with losses of more than 500mW, which
will knock out most linear AC adapters (also the active mode losses
are limited). It's already voluntary in China, Canada and the EU, and
mandatory in Oz. Manufacturers will probably more go to switchers
rather than improving the linear adapters**, which has advantages in
shipping weight and size, and allowing 'universal' input voltage which
can be used anywhere in the world, from 100VAC in Japan to 240VAC in
Europe etc. Also less losses in regulation.

Anyway, if the losses are 2.5W and you're running it 24/7, you're
wasting 22kWh/year, which is probably worth more than the adapter cost
to make, but it's still only a couple dollars, so not really a big
deal for one. But if you made all of them in the US twice as efficient
you could save energy equivalent to the output of a nuclear power
plant or two, IIRC.

http://energyefficiency.jrc.cec.eu.int/pdf/Workshop_May.2005/power%20supply/Martinez%20PS.pdf

** Or maybe just hire lobbyists..


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Posted by RoyJ on April 8, 2006, 6:12 pm
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I just used my "Kill-A-Watt" power meter to take a look at several wall
warts. All the samll ones were slightly warm to the touch, at no load
used less than 1 watt (limit of resolution) on the power meter, and had
a power factor down in the .15 range. I tried a bigger one used for
charging my big cordless drill, it ran 4 watts and .47 power factor.

As a side note, I got a "Kill-A-Watt" power meter
http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html
run about $30 to $35, used it to track down about 3/4 of my total
household power useage. The wall warts were NOT an issue, the freezer,
the refrigerator, and my wife's reading lamp were heavy hitters. The
reading lamp got a 40 watt florescent, saves about $6 a MONTH on that
item alone!!

I took a reading for several days on each item, loaded the KWH reading
and hour reading into a speadsheet, and calculated the monthly power
consumption and cost. Real eye opener!

Siggy wrote:
> A while back there was a discussion about why wall wart transformers that
> were not under load would draw no current. Anyone recall that thread? As I
> recall there were some references to the induced currents created by
> collapsing magnetic fields etc.
>
> Anyway, I'm trying to either prove or disprove the statement that unplugging
> wall warts when not actually using them to power or re-charge your device
> will save electricity. My recollection is that it doesn't matter. Right or
> wrong?
>
>

Posted by Robert Swinney on April 8, 2006, 11:33 pm
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Martin,

I knew Malcolm Coleman at Motorola. He was head of the power group in Area
D. We were neighbors and amateur photographers. We both had Canon EF
cameras.

Bob Swinney


> The toaster oven and toaster are heavy users if you are in a Peak load or
> Peak max limit....
> billing (a ratcheting clamp of higher bills based on peak).
>
> One sneaky one is the outside air conditioner in winter. The heater for
> the oil is
> still heating. It must be turned on for hours prior to first use - but
> then I'd check
> with a air con guy before chilling that as it may cause another issue.
>
> I used to log power leg currents - using two clamp meters on each leg
> being fed into
> an ADC on my computer. An 8080. It was interesting to run it for a few
> days and look
> at the plots.
>
> Martin
>
> Martin
>
> Martin Eastburn
> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
> NRA LOH & Endowment Member
> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
>
>
> RoyJ wrote:
>> I just used my "Kill-A-Watt" power meter to take a look at several wall
>> warts. All the samll ones were slightly warm to the touch, at no load
>> used less than 1 watt (limit of resolution) on the power meter, and had a
>> power factor down in the .15 range. I tried a bigger one used for
>> charging my big cordless drill, it ran 4 watts and .47 power factor.
>>
>> As a side note, I got a "Kill-A-Watt" power meter
>> http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html
>> run about $30 to $35, used it to track down about 3/4 of my total
>> household power useage. The wall warts were NOT an issue, the freezer,
>> the refrigerator, and my wife's reading lamp were heavy hitters. The
>> reading lamp got a 40 watt florescent, saves about $6 a MONTH on that
>> item alone!!
>>
>> I took a reading for several days on each item, loaded the KWH reading
>> and hour reading into a speadsheet, and calculated the monthly power
>> consumption and cost. Real eye opener!
>>
>> Siggy wrote:
>>
>>> A while back there was a discussion about why wall wart transformers
>>> that were not under load would draw no current. Anyone recall that
>>> thread? As I recall there were some references to the induced currents
>>> created by collapsing magnetic fields etc.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'm trying to either prove or disprove the statement that
>>> unplugging wall warts when not actually using them to power or re-charge
>>> your device will save electricity. My recollection is that it doesn't
>>> matter. Right or wrong?
>>>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----



Posted by Martin H. Eastburn on April 9, 2006, 9:16 pm
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Bob -

I knew Malcolm Coleman at Motorola - well - I did custom designs for him
at his request - and they were approved by the divisional Engineering in Ill.
I flew all over the U.S. with members of Malcolm's Dallas team and the Sch. Ill.
Team.
Sadly, some friends were on a plane in the fateful day in Chicago - another
missed that
plane and lived. The system was a computerized Utility Load Controller -
monitoring
power substations .... and shedding loads (hot water, well pumps, air
conditioners...).

I lost track of him when the small company I was working for got smaller. I went
to
work for SLB and a long string of home moves.

Fond memories of the local Motorola office and memories of our trips.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member


Robert Swinney wrote:
> Martin,
>
> I knew Malcolm Coleman at Motorola. He was head of the power group in Area
> D. We were neighbors and amateur photographers. We both had Canon EF
> cameras.
>
> Bob Swinney
>
>
>
>>The toaster oven and toaster are heavy users if you are in a Peak load or
>>Peak max limit....
>>billing (a ratcheting clamp of higher bills based on peak).
>>
>>One sneaky one is the outside air conditioner in winter. The heater for
>>the oil is
>>still heating. It must be turned on for hours prior to first use - but
>>then I'd check
>>with a air con guy before chilling that as it may cause another issue.
>>
>>I used to log power leg currents - using two clamp meters on each leg
>>being fed into
>>an ADC on my computer. An 8080. It was interesting to run it for a few
>>days and look
>>at the plots.
>>
>>Martin
>>
>>Martin
>>
>>Martin Eastburn
>>@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
>>NRA LOH & Endowment Member
>>NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
>>IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
>>
>>
>>RoyJ wrote:
>>
>>>I just used my "Kill-A-Watt" power meter to take a look at several wall
>>>warts. All the samll ones were slightly warm to the touch, at no load
>>>used less than 1 watt (limit of resolution) on the power meter, and had a
>>>power factor down in the .15 range. I tried a bigger one used for
>>>charging my big cordless drill, it ran 4 watts and .47 power factor.
>>>
>>>As a side note, I got a "Kill-A-Watt" power meter
>>>http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html
>>>run about $30 to $35, used it to track down about 3/4 of my total
>>>household power useage. The wall warts were NOT an issue, the freezer,
>>>the refrigerator, and my wife's reading lamp were heavy hitters. The
>>>reading lamp got a 40 watt florescent, saves about $6 a MONTH on that
>>>item alone!!
>>>
>>>I took a reading for several days on each item, loaded the KWH reading
>>>and hour reading into a speadsheet, and calculated the monthly power
>>>consumption and cost. Real eye opener!
>>>
>>>Siggy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>A while back there was a discussion about why wall wart transformers
>>>>that were not under load would draw no current. Anyone recall that
>>>>thread? As I recall there were some references to the induced currents
>>>>created by collapsing magnetic fields etc.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, I'm trying to either prove or disprove the statement that
>>>>unplugging wall warts when not actually using them to power or re-charge
>>>>your device will save electricity. My recollection is that it doesn't
>>>>matter. Right or wrong?
>>>>
>>
>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
>>News==----
>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
>>Newsgroups
>>----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
>>=----
>
>
>

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Posted by Robert Swinney on April 9, 2006, 11:17 pm
Please log in for more thread options

> Bob -
>
> I knew Malcolm Coleman at Motorola - well - I did custom designs for him
> at his request - and they were approved by the divisional Engineering in
> Ill.
> I flew all over the U.S. with members of Malcolm's Dallas team and the
> Sch. Ill. Team.
> Sadly, some friends were on a plane in the fateful day in Chicago -
> another missed that
> plane and lived. The system was a computerized Utility Load Controller -
> monitoring
> power substations .... and shedding loads (hot water, well pumps, air
> conditioners...).
>
> I lost track of him when the small company I was working for got smaller.
> I went to
> work for SLB and a long string of home moves.
>
> Fond memories of the local Motorola office and memories of our trips.
>
> Martin
>
> Martin Eastburn
> @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
> NRA LOH & Endowment Member
> NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
> IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
>
>
> Robert Swinney wrote:
>> Martin,
>>
>> I knew Malcolm Coleman at Motorola. He was head of the power group in
>> Area D. We were neighbors and amateur photographers. We both had Canon
>> EF cameras.
>>
>> Bob Swinney
>>
>>
>>
>>>The toaster oven and toaster are heavy users if you are in a Peak load or
>>>Peak max limit....
>>>billing (a ratcheting clamp of higher bills based on peak).
>>>
>>>One sneaky one is the outside air conditioner in winter. The heater for
>>>the oil is
>>>still heating. It must be turned on for hours prior to first use - but
>>>then I'd check
>>>with a air con guy before chilling that as it may cause another issue.
>>>
>>>I used to log power leg currents - using two clamp meters on each leg
>>>being fed into
>>>an ADC on my computer. An 8080. It was interesting to run it for a few
>>>days and look
>>>at the plots.
>>>
>>>Martin
>>>
>>>Martin
>>>
>>>Martin Eastburn
>>>@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
>>>NRA LOH & Endowment Member
>>>NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
>>>IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
>>>
>>>
>>>RoyJ wrote:
>>>
>>>>I just used my "Kill-A-Watt" power meter to take a look at several wall
>>>>warts. All the samll ones were slightly warm to the touch, at no load
>>>>used less than 1 watt (limit of resolution) on the power meter, and had
>>>>a power factor down in the .15 range. I tried a bigger one used for
>>>>charging my big cordless drill, it ran 4 watts and .47 power factor.
>>>>
>>>>As a side note, I got a "Kill-A-Watt" power meter
>>>>http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html
>>>>run about $30 to $35, used it to track down about 3/4 of my total
>>>>household power useage. The wall warts were NOT an issue, the freezer,
>>>>the refrigerator, and my wife's reading lamp were heavy hitters. The
>>>>reading lamp got a 40 watt florescent, saves about $6 a MONTH on that
>>>>item alone!!
>>>>
>>>>I took a reading for several days on each item, loaded the KWH reading
>>>>and hour reading into a speadsheet, and calculated the monthly power
>>>>consumption and cost. Real eye opener!
>>>>
>>>>Siggy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>A while back there was a discussion about why wall wart transformers
>>>>>that were not under load would draw no current. Anyone recall that
>>>>>thread? As I recall there were some references to the induced currents
>>>>>created by collapsing magnetic fields etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>Anyway, I'm trying to either prove or disprove the statement that
>>>>>unplugging wall warts when not actually using them to power or
>>>>>re-charge your device will save electricity. My recollection is that
>>>>>it doesn't matter. Right or wrong?
>>>>>
>>>
>>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
>>>News==----
>>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
>>>Newsgroups
>>>----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
>>>=----
>>
>>
>>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----



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