pump wire sizes

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Subject Author Date
pump wire sizes Karl Townsend 07-12-2008
Posted by Robert Swinney on July 13, 2008, 7:33 pm
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Roy J sez:

"I don't have my book at home to figure it out but, explain to me why the
imbalance, I'm curious"

If I might take a stab at it, my W.A.G. is:

Karl, like so many who build RPCs, probably lost sight of the need to properly
balance the
idler-motor / load network. They throw in a few random-valued capacitors and
step back to admire
their work, giving no thought to completing the job in anything resembling good
electrical design.
They seem totally thrilled their RPC will start and run and assume that is good
enough.

In all likelihood the currents are measured with a "clamp-on" type of ammeter.
In that process true
currents are not being measured among wildly different phase relationships in
the 3 leads of an
unbalanced RPC.

IMO, guys like Karl would do well to build proper RPCs before asking questions
on RCM about wire
sizing for bogus currents. People like Bruce with electrical backgrounds would
be better able to
give meaningful advice re. wire sizing if they had any notion of what the
3-phase currents in
question were all about. It is impossible, as far as I know, to accurately
measure unbalanced
3-phase currents with an clamp-on ammeter.

Bob Swinney



** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Posted by RoyJ on July 13, 2008, 8:18 pm
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You need to understand that Karl has a single phase (NOT 3phase!!!) 240
volt submersible pump where the run cap is topside. So the currents are
measured between leads that are normally buried inside the motor. The
currents he is quoting come directly from the manufacturer's service
literature.



Robert Swinney wrote:
> Roy J sez:
>
> "I don't have my book at home to figure it out but, explain to me why the
imbalance, I'm curious"
>
> If I might take a stab at it, my W.A.G. is:
>
> Karl, like so many who build RPCs, probably lost sight of the need to properly
balance the
> idler-motor / load network. They throw in a few random-valued capacitors and
step back to admire
> their work, giving no thought to completing the job in anything resembling
good electrical design.
> They seem totally thrilled their RPC will start and run and assume that is
good enough.
>
> In all likelihood the currents are measured with a "clamp-on" type of ammeter.
In that process true
> currents are not being measured among wildly different phase relationships in
the 3 leads of an
> unbalanced RPC.
>
> IMO, guys like Karl would do well to build proper RPCs before asking questions
on RCM about wire
> sizing for bogus currents. People like Bruce with electrical backgrounds
would be better able to
> give meaningful advice re. wire sizing if they had any notion of what the
3-phase currents in
> question were all about. It is impossible, as far as I know, to accurately
measure unbalanced
> 3-phase currents with an clamp-on ammeter.
>
> Bob Swinney
>
>
>
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Posted by Bruce L. Bergman on July 13, 2008, 11:28 pm
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wrote:
>Robert Swinney wrote:

>> If I might take a stab at it, my W.A.G. is:
>>
>> Karl, like so many who build RPCs, probably lost sight of the need to
properly balance the
>> idler-motor / load network. They throw in a few random-valued capacitors and
step back to admire
>> their work, giving no thought to completing the job in anything resembling
good electrical design.
>> They seem totally thrilled their RPC will start and run and assume that is
good enough.

Your Wild Ass Guess is stunningly wrong. Karl clearly stated this
was a single-phase pump a while back. See below:

>You need to understand that Karl has a single phase (NOT 3 phase!!!) 240
>volt submersible pump where the run cap is topside. So the currents are
>measured between leads that are normally buried inside the motor. The
>currents he is quoting come directly from the manufacturer's service
>literature.

The run capacitor and the motor coils (and the 180' of downlead
cable in between) play hell with leading and lagging currents in the
windings, and a clamp-amp isn't going to be all that accurate on
oddball waveforms - even a digital one. If you need true accuracy
(even though it won't accomplish anything other than bragging rights)
you need to hook up an oscilloscope and watch all three lines, or
spend huge bucks on a laboratory grade True RMS clamp-amp unit.

The current you really have to worry about is the line current to
the pump control box, and to a lesser extent check for ground leakage
which is a harbinger of a failing motor or a damaged pump lead cable.

--<< Bruce >>--



Posted by Robert Swinney on July 14, 2008, 12:45 pm
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Bruce,

I stand corrected !! My WAG was ""stunningly wrong"" about Karl's question
being in regard to
single-phase currents. Guess I didn't read back far enough. Your answer to Karl
could have been a
little more clear in as much as you addressed it to the entire group. I wonder
if it confused me
whether you, as a professional, were talking about single or 3-phase currents,
how it may have come
across to others.

Bob Swinney




wrote:
>Robert Swinney wrote:

>> If I might take a stab at it, my W.A.G. is:
>>
>> Karl, like so many who build RPCs, probably lost sight of the need to
properly balance the
>> idler-motor / load network. They throw in a few random-valued capacitors and
step back to admire
>> their work, giving no thought to completing the job in anything resembling
good electrical
>> design.
>> They seem totally thrilled their RPC will start and run and assume that is
good enough.

Your Wild Ass Guess is stunningly wrong. Karl clearly stated this
was a single-phase pump a while back. See below:

>You need to understand that Karl has a single phase (NOT 3 phase!!!) 240
>volt submersible pump where the run cap is topside. So the currents are
>measured between leads that are normally buried inside the motor. The
>currents he is quoting come directly from the manufacturer's service
>literature.

The run capacitor and the motor coils (and the 180' of downlead
cable in between) play hell with leading and lagging currents in the
windings, and a clamp-amp isn't going to be all that accurate on
oddball waveforms - even a digital one. If you need true accuracy
(even though it won't accomplish anything other than bragging rights)
you need to hook up an oscilloscope and watch all three lines, or
spend huge bucks on a laboratory grade True RMS clamp-amp unit.

The current you really have to worry about is the line current to
the pump control box, and to a lesser extent check for ground leakage
which is a harbinger of a failing motor or a damaged pump lead cable.

--<< Bruce >>--


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Posted by Karl Townsend on July 14, 2008, 6:19 am
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...
> Karl, like so many who build RPCs, probably lost sight of the need to
> properly balance the
> idler-motor / load network. They throw in a few random-valued capacitors
> and step back to admire
> their work, giving no thought to completing the job in anything resembling
> good electrical design.
> They seem totally thrilled their RPC will start and run and assume that is
> good enough.

I don't know what i did to get on your bad side. FWIW, you're right I know
nothing of balancing. So, I had Fitch tune my units(three) I sent him loaded
and unloaded voltages. He told me what to install.

BTW, anybody heard from Fitch lately?

Karl



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