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Model Engineering in UK - Model engineering, metal crafts in UK
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Posted by Dave Baker on February 14, 2008, 10:38 am
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> Tim Leech wrote:
>
>> I'll respond to a couple of points here,though.
>>
>> First, my reason for raising the fact that I had phoned in January was
>> mainly to show that I had not simply rung two months after the
>> publication and expected a price advertised in December. It was no
>> huge surprise that I didn't get my call returned, yours is certainly
>> not the only organisation guilty of that sin <G>. When I did get
>> through to your office this month, my first question was whether the
>> chuck was still available at the offer price, I was very pleased to
>> learn that it was.
>>
>> Second, I do not see how you can duck out of a verbal agreement made
>> with one of your staff. I did not even know of the existence of the
>> smaller 100mm diameter chuck until I spoke to him, as the advert only
>> refers to the 125mm chuck. There is absolutely no way that I would
>> have ordered two chucks at £39+ each.
>>
>> Third, although I am generally very mild-mannered I had been angered
>> by the turn of the conversation and the continual doubt cast on my
>> word.
>
>
> You have two options in law - return the chucks under the DSR, if you are
> a private individual. You do not have to give any reason for this, and
> whether your word is in doubt or not is irrelevant. The seller then has to
> refund the price of the goods and forward carriage within 30 days, and
> cannot charge a restocking fee or insist on a credit note. That's the law.
> You will probably have to arrange and pay for return carriage though.
>
> Your second option is to reject the goods under the Sale of Goods Act. You
> have to give a reason for this, but in this case it's pretty obvious that
> the contract was flawed, as the price charged was not the price quoted.
> The value of your word does come into this, but it does not seem
> reasonable to doubt your word, under the circumstances.
There's no reason in law why the purchaser can't keep the chucks and sue for
the amount he has been overcharged by. A valid contract has been established
and whether it was verbal or not matters not a jot. All that affects is the
evidence that the parties could put before a court and in this case a judge
would have to decide on balance of probabilities who was telling the truth.
If the seller's employee who entered into the contract made a mistake about
the current price that's his fault but the purchaser is entitled to take it
that the employee who is quoting prices to him is acting within his
authority i.e intra vires rather than ultra vires.
--
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines
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Posted by Tony Jeffree on February 14, 2008, 10:52 am
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wrote:
>A valid contract has been established
>and whether it was verbal or not matters not a jot.
Dave -
All very well in theory; in practice, you have to be able to prove the
existence of the verbal contract (very difficult indeed when it is
between 2 people on the telephone), and most significantly, the
exercise of attempting the proof in front of said judge would be
significantly more costly than the disputed amount in this case, even
if you chose to represent yourself (lost working time, etc. etc.).
So yes, a verbal contract is binding; however, in practice, a verbal
contract is often worth rather less than the paper it is written on.
Regards,
Tony
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Posted by Dave Baker on February 14, 2008, 12:25 pm
Please log in for more thread options
> wrote:
>
>>A valid contract has been established
>>and whether it was verbal or not matters not a jot.
>
> Dave -
>
> All very well in theory; in practice, you have to be able to prove the
> existence of the verbal contract (very difficult indeed when it is
> between 2 people on the telephone), and most significantly, the
> exercise of attempting the proof in front of said judge would be
> significantly more costly than the disputed amount in this case, even
> if you chose to represent yourself (lost working time, etc. etc.).
The filing fees in the small claims court are minimal (and recoverable if
you win) and the matter would be decided on the balance of probability
rather than proof beyond reasonable doubt as is the case in criminal
matters. I know whose story I believe here and I have no doubt a DJ would
decide likewise.
>
> So yes, a verbal contract is binding; however, in practice, a verbal
> contract is often worth rather less than the paper it is written on.
Indeed true but DJs have vast experience of deciding who is telling porkies
and who isn't. Very few people go to the lengths of taking a case to court
for a few quid unless they are clearly in the right.
--
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines
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Posted by Boo on February 14, 2008, 3:54 pm
Please log in for more thread options > So yes, a verbal contract is binding; however, in practice, a verbal
> contract is often worth rather less than the paper it is written on.
This is true, but a judge might also be prepared to accept as evidence any notes
you might have made of the conversation on, say, a scribble pad. As an engineer
I always maintain a log of phone conversations, with dates and significant
figures in my engineers notebook. 'Tis true, I don't bother at home though...
--
Boo
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Posted by Peter Fairbrother on February 14, 2008, 11:00 am
Please log in for more thread options Dave Baker wrote:
>> Tim Leech wrote:
>>
>>> I'll respond to a couple of points here,though.
>>>
>>> First, my reason for raising the fact that I had phoned in January was
>>> mainly to show that I had not simply rung two months after the
>>> publication and expected a price advertised in December. It was no
>>> huge surprise that I didn't get my call returned, yours is certainly
>>> not the only organisation guilty of that sin <G>. When I did get
>>> through to your office this month, my first question was whether the
>>> chuck was still available at the offer price, I was very pleased to
>>> learn that it was.
>>>
>>> Second, I do not see how you can duck out of a verbal agreement made
>>> with one of your staff. I did not even know of the existence of the
>>> smaller 100mm diameter chuck until I spoke to him, as the advert only
>>> refers to the 125mm chuck. There is absolutely no way that I would
>>> have ordered two chucks at £39+ each.
>>>
>>> Third, although I am generally very mild-mannered I had been angered
>>> by the turn of the conversation and the continual doubt cast on my
>>> word.
>>
>> You have two options in law - return the chucks under the DSR, if you are
>> a private individual. You do not have to give any reason for this, and
>> whether your word is in doubt or not is irrelevant. The seller then has to
>> refund the price of the goods and forward carriage within 30 days, and
>> cannot charge a restocking fee or insist on a credit note. That's the law.
>> You will probably have to arrange and pay for return carriage though.
>>
>> Your second option is to reject the goods under the Sale of Goods Act. You
>> have to give a reason for this, but in this case it's pretty obvious that
>> the contract was flawed, as the price charged was not the price quoted.
>> The value of your word does come into this, but it does not seem
>> reasonable to doubt your word, under the circumstances.
>
> There's no reason in law why the purchaser can't keep the chucks and sue for
> the amount he has been overcharged by. A valid contract has been established
> and whether it was verbal or not matters not a jot. All that affects is the
> evidence that the parties could put before a court and in this case a judge
> would have to decide on balance of probabilities who was telling the truth.
> If the seller's employee who entered into the contract made a mistake about
> the current price that's his fault but the purchaser is entitled to take it
> that the employee who is quoting prices to him is acting within his
> authority i.e intra vires rather than ultra vires.
I assumed that Chester's terms and conditions include a visible and
available E&OE (errors and omissions excepted) clause - in which case
the contract could or would be determined (ended) by the error.
Maybe not though.
-- Peter Fairbrother
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