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Posted by Cheshire Steve on March 6, 2008, 4:32 pm
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wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > This site was discovered by a south African member
> > > > > on the Oldengine group. No one on the OE group has heard of this idea
> > > > > so I thought this was a suitable group to ask!
> > > > > Seehttp://www.greensteamengine.com/
> > > > > I look forward to your comments.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dave Croft
> > > > >
Warringtonhttp://www.oldengine.org/members/croft/http://community.webshots.com/...
>
> > > > Hi Dave
>
> > > > I happen to have in front of me a Siemens engine design of about 1860
> > > > with the same layout (with 4 cylinders), the only difference is that
> > > > this one uses a bendy coupling, whereas the 1860 version used a rigid
> > > > coupling with a ball pivot in the centre. As far as I can see,
> > > > anything else claimed (and there is a lot) is either baloney or
> > > > irrelevant to the patent, which is just the bendy bit. Siemens was
> > > > trying to invent the IC engine, the drive system wasn't the novel part
> > > > of his design, it probably dates way back to the days when there was a
> > > > patent on the crankshaft.
>
> > > > Steve
>
> > > Am I missing something, or is the bendy bit actually superfluous ?
> > > And I cant see how having a spring being bent like that would
> > > contribute
> > > any return of energy.
>
> > > Dave
>
> > You are right, the bendy bit returns no energy. The mechanism doesn't
> > have the friction that might arise in a ball swivel, but the main
> > thing is that it might just be novel enough to gain a patent, unless
> > you can show someone used a bendy rod before. To patent something it
> > doesn't have to be useful, just novel, and on your own web page you
> > can claim anything else you like.
>
> > You don't even need a patent, but some people will add one to the
> > other and think the patent backs up the misleading claims - which it
> > doesn't - it just applies to the bendy bit.
>
> > Max efficiency of a heat engine is temperature difference divided by
> > the higher temperature (and we are talking degrees absolute here).
> > Minor variations in friction within engines is tiny compared to that
> > fundamental limit.
>
> > Steve
>
> Its amazing how much money people must have spare. Patents are
> not cheap (Ive looked into it for something Im developing), and
> whilst
> using a spring might be 'novel' the engineer in me cringes at the
> claims
> on the website....
> Ive not built a swashplate engine, but I cant see how you even need
> the
> 'bendy bit' There must be a pivot / bearing in the flywheel, which has
> to
> take the thrust. And as for not needing 'crossheads' whats that bolted
> to
> the back of the cylinders?
>
> Dave
> (glass of wine in hand, grumpy old man hat firmly on!)
Hi Dave,
I like the grumpy old man with glass of wine attitude - can go for
that myself.
I have bunged a copy of the Siemens engine drawing from 1860 on the
web at
http://uk.geocities.com/oldnoccer@btinternet.com/Siemens/SiemensEngine1860.jpg
You will see the similarity (assuming the link works)
Steve
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Posted by James Lugsden on March 6, 2008, 4:52 pm
Please log in for more thread options
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > This site was discovered by a south African member
>> > > > > on the Oldengine group. No one on the OE group has heard of this
>> > > > > idea
>> > > > > so I thought this was a suitable group to ask!
>> > > > > Seehttp://www.greensteamengine.com/
>> > > > > I look forward to your comments.
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Dave Croft
>> > > > >
Warringtonhttp://www.oldengine.org/members/croft/http://community.webshots.com/...
>>
>> > > > Hi Dave
>>
>> > > > I happen to have in front of me a Siemens engine design of about
>> > > > 1860
>> > > > with the same layout (with 4 cylinders), the only difference is
>> > > > that
>> > > > this one uses a bendy coupling, whereas the 1860 version used a
>> > > > rigid
>> > > > coupling with a ball pivot in the centre. As far as I can see,
>> > > > anything else claimed (and there is a lot) is either baloney or
>> > > > irrelevant to the patent, which is just the bendy bit. Siemens was
>> > > > trying to invent the IC engine, the drive system wasn't the novel
>> > > > part
>> > > > of his design, it probably dates way back to the days when there
>> > > > was a
>> > > > patent on the crankshaft.
>>
>> > > > Steve
>>
>> > > Am I missing something, or is the bendy bit actually superfluous ?
>> > > And I cant see how having a spring being bent like that would
>> > > contribute
>> > > any return of energy.
>>
>> > > Dave
>>
>> > You are right, the bendy bit returns no energy. The mechanism doesn't
>> > have the friction that might arise in a ball swivel, but the main
>> > thing is that it might just be novel enough to gain a patent, unless
>> > you can show someone used a bendy rod before. To patent something it
>> > doesn't have to be useful, just novel, and on your own web page you
>> > can claim anything else you like.
>>
>> > You don't even need a patent, but some people will add one to the
>> > other and think the patent backs up the misleading claims - which it
>> > doesn't - it just applies to the bendy bit.
>>
>> > Max efficiency of a heat engine is temperature difference divided by
>> > the higher temperature (and we are talking degrees absolute here).
>> > Minor variations in friction within engines is tiny compared to that
>> > fundamental limit.
>>
>> > Steve
>>
>> Its amazing how much money people must have spare. Patents are
>> not cheap (Ive looked into it for something Im developing), and
>> whilst
>> using a spring might be 'novel' the engineer in me cringes at the
>> claims
>> on the website....
>> Ive not built a swashplate engine, but I cant see how you even need
>> the
>> 'bendy bit' There must be a pivot / bearing in the flywheel, which has
>> to
>> take the thrust. And as for not needing 'crossheads' whats that bolted
>> to
>> the back of the cylinders?
>>
>> Dave
>> (glass of wine in hand, grumpy old man hat firmly on!)
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I like the grumpy old man with glass of wine attitude - can go for
> that myself.
>
> I have bunged a copy of the Siemens engine drawing from 1860 on the
> web at
> http://uk.geocities.com/oldnoccer@btinternet.com/Siemens/SiemensEngine1860.jpg
>
> You will see the similarity (assuming the link works)
>
> Steve
Isn't the Bendy Bit the steam pipe from the valves in the flywheel?
For more swashplate engines see "The Knife and Fork Man" by Bill Fairney,its
the story of Charles Benjamin Redrup.
Jim Lugsden
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Posted by Ray on March 6, 2008, 6:55 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 21:52:59 -0000, "James Lugsden"
>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > > > wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > This site was discovered by a south African member
>>> > > > > on the Oldengine group. No one on the OE group has heard of this
>>> > > > > idea
>>> > > > > so I thought this was a suitable group to ask!
>>> > > > > Seehttp://www.greensteamengine.com/
>>> > > > > I look forward to your comments.
>>> > > > > --
>>> > > > > Dave Croft
>>> > > > >
Warringtonhttp://www.oldengine.org/members/croft/http://community.webshots.com/...
>>>
>>> > > > Hi Dave
>>>
>>> > > > I happen to have in front of me a Siemens engine design of about
>>> > > > 1860
>>> > > > with the same layout (with 4 cylinders), the only difference is
>>> > > > that
>>> > > > this one uses a bendy coupling, whereas the 1860 version used a
>>> > > > rigid
>>> > > > coupling with a ball pivot in the centre. As far as I can see,
>>> > > > anything else claimed (and there is a lot) is either baloney or
>>> > > > irrelevant to the patent, which is just the bendy bit. Siemens was
>>> > > > trying to invent the IC engine, the drive system wasn't the novel
>>> > > > part
>>> > > > of his design, it probably dates way back to the days when there
>>> > > > was a
>>> > > > patent on the crankshaft.
>>>
>>> > > > Steve
>>>
>>> > > Am I missing something, or is the bendy bit actually superfluous ?
>>> > > And I cant see how having a spring being bent like that would
>>> > > contribute
>>> > > any return of energy.
>>>
>>> > > Dave
>>>
>>> > You are right, the bendy bit returns no energy. The mechanism doesn't
>>> > have the friction that might arise in a ball swivel, but the main
>>> > thing is that it might just be novel enough to gain a patent, unless
>>> > you can show someone used a bendy rod before. To patent something it
>>> > doesn't have to be useful, just novel, and on your own web page you
>>> > can claim anything else you like.
>>>
>>> > You don't even need a patent, but some people will add one to the
>>> > other and think the patent backs up the misleading claims - which it
>>> > doesn't - it just applies to the bendy bit.
>>>
>>> > Max efficiency of a heat engine is temperature difference divided by
>>> > the higher temperature (and we are talking degrees absolute here).
>>> > Minor variations in friction within engines is tiny compared to that
>>> > fundamental limit.
>>>
>>> > Steve
>>>
>>> Its amazing how much money people must have spare. Patents are
>>> not cheap (Ive looked into it for something Im developing), and
>>> whilst
>>> using a spring might be 'novel' the engineer in me cringes at the
>>> claims
>>> on the website....
>>> Ive not built a swashplate engine, but I cant see how you even need
>>> the
>>> 'bendy bit' There must be a pivot / bearing in the flywheel, which has
>>> to
>>> take the thrust. And as for not needing 'crossheads' whats that bolted
>>> to
>>> the back of the cylinders?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> (glass of wine in hand, grumpy old man hat firmly on!)
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> I like the grumpy old man with glass of wine attitude - can go for
>> that myself.
>>
>> I have bunged a copy of the Siemens engine drawing from 1860 on the
>> web at
>> http://uk.geocities.com/oldnoccer@btinternet.com/Siemens/SiemensEngine1860.jpg
>>
>> You will see the similarity (assuming the link works)
>>
>> Steve
>
>Isn't the Bendy Bit the steam pipe from the valves in the flywheel?
>For more swashplate engines see "The Knife and Fork Man" by Bill Fairney,its
>the story of Charles Benjamin Redrup.
> Jim Lugsden
>
Also see David Urwick, patentee of the triangular gib key and designer of
the Metalmaster machine tool. His passion was stirling engines and the last
one I saw described in ME was a Siemens Drive with lots of tiny ball
joints. He'd used all manner of devices from z-crank, swashplate/wobble
plate and lots of others in earlier engines. Just not content to watch
wheels go round, that man.
--
Ray
The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is given by pi*z*z*a.
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Posted by Ray on March 6, 2008, 7:17 pm
Please log in for more thread options in impeccable English,..
>>
>Also see David Urwick, patentee of the triangular gib key and designer of
>the Metalmaster machine tool. His passion was stirling engines and the last
>one I saw described in ME was a Siemens Drive with lots of tiny ball
>joints. He'd used all manner of devices from z-crank, swashplate/wobble
>plate and lots of others in earlier engines. Just not content to watch
>wheels go round, that man.
Following up self, just found it
http://www.btinternet.com/~sylvestris/gallery/smallsiemens.htm
--
Ray
The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is given by pi*z*z*a.
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|
Posted by Cheshire Steve on March 7, 2008, 6:16 pm
Please log in for more thread options
> Ray
> The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is given by pi*z*z*a.
Ray,
Love the equation for the pizza, but was surprised to hear about this
being referred to as the Siemens drive, and I am also not sure if the
correct term is swashplate as I thought that had a sliding angled
plate, whereas this more of a wobbler.
Back to the Siemens drive..I came across the design of this engine in
a book called The Theory of The Gas Engine by Dugald Clerk published
in about 1882 (though possibly reprinted from an earlier magazine). It
is interesting in stating the Siemens had worked out all about the
need for compression in the cylinders by 1860, and then built the
engine in the drawing (for which I provided a link in an earlier
message). Clearly Sir/Dr Siemens was at the leading edge of the
theory, and I have extracted this bit...
"With reference to the early engine which Dr. Siemens constructed in
1860, the author had stated
that it combined other elements, which were entirely wanting in the
gas engines of the present day. The gas engine of
the present day, taking either of the three types, was, in his
opinion, in the condition of the steam engine at the time of
Newcomen."
"In the engine which he constructed in 1860 all those points were
fully taken into account. The combustion of the
gases took place in a cylinder without working a piston, and in a
cylinder that could be maintained hot, and the gases
after having completed expansive action, communicated their heat by
means of a regenerator to the incoming gases before explosion took
place. Although the engine was not worked with ordinary gas used for
illumination, but by a cheaper kind made in a gas producer, he then
thought that a gas engine constructed on that principle would prove to
be the nearest approach to the theoretical limits which could never be
exceeded, but which might exceed the limits of the steam engine four
or five fold. The engine promised to give very good results, but about
the same time he began to give his attention to the production of
intense heat in furnaces, and having to make his choice between the
two subjects, he selected the furnace and the metallurgic process
leading out of it ; and that was why the engine had remained where it
was for so long a time."
So - the big item here is that there is not even a mention of the
drive system - not a peep. So although we know Siemens had it as part
of his design for an internal combustion engine he built in 1860,
surely it would have been remarked on if it was novel. I suspect it
had been around for some time.
Steve
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