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Posted by dave sanderson on February 20, 2008, 6:00 pm
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evening all,
Ive got (yet another) project in planning. It will involve some small
jet nozzles (about 1/4" or less) .
They will be subjected to centrifugal force (disk of about 12 -18" dia
doing a few thousand rpm), and supplied with compressed air from
a seperate source. I think probably an inconel combustor/nozzle
would do, but which inconel, and where would I get it?
Would stainless be any better?
There are people here with more rocket experience than me (zero) so
Im asking for opinions, and also sources?
cheers
Dave
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Posted by Peter Fairbrother on February 20, 2008, 11:06 pm
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dave sanderson wrote:
> evening all,
> Ive got (yet another) project in planning. It will involve some small
> jet nozzles (about 1/4" or less) .
> They will be subjected to centrifugal force (disk of about 12 -18" dia
> doing a few thousand rpm), and supplied with compressed air from
> a seperate source. I think probably an inconel combustor/nozzle
> would do, but which inconel, and where would I get it?
> Would stainless be any better?
> There are people here with more rocket experience than me (zero) so
> Im asking for opinions, and also sources?
>
> cheers
>
> Dave
Hi Dave,
I'm a bit confused by your post, but I'm one of very few (lawful) rocket
engine builders in the UK.
Can you give me some more details? I may be able to help, but I don't
understand what you want to do. Is it a rotary rocket? Powered by
compressed air, or what?
Inconel is usually okay for jet nozzles, but you may well have problems
if you want to use it for rocket nozzles. What sort of inconel do you
want? Bar, tube, sheet? What grade?
-- Peter Fairbrother
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Posted by dave sanderson on February 21, 2008, 3:54 am
Please log in for more thread options > dave sanderson wrote:
> > evening all,
> > Ive got (yet another) project in planning. It will involve some small
> > jet nozzles (about 1/4" or less) .
> > They will be subjected to centrifugal force (disk of about 12 -18" dia
> > doing a few thousand rpm), and supplied with compressed air from
> > a seperate source. I think probably an inconel combustor/nozzle
> > would do, but which inconel, and where would I get it?
> > Would stainless be any better?
> > There are people here with more rocket experience than me (zero) so
> > Im asking for opinions, and also sources?
>
> > cheers
>
> > Dave
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I'm a bit confused by your post, but I'm one of very few (lawful) rocket
> engine builders in the UK.
>
> Can you give me some more details? I may be able to help, but I don't
> understand what you want to do. Is it a rotary rocket? Powered by
> compressed air, or what?
>
> Inconel is usually okay for jet nozzles, but you may well have problems
> if you want to use it for rocket nozzles. What sort of inconel do you
> want? Bar, tube, sheet? What grade?
>
> -- Peter Fairbrother
Hi Peter,
hoped you'd see this one. (remembered your rocketry background)
Yes, thats the question. This is a new field for me.
Do you know of the Fairey Rotodyne? If not think helicopter with
rocket/jet
mounted to the rotor tips. This is the kind of thing Im thinking of.
Its just an 'in my head' design at the moment, not even sure if its
feasible,
but basically a motor/engine powers a small compressor. This air is
fed up
a tube where the mainshaft would sit and into an airbearing/thrust
assy for the
rotor head. The 'spinny' part of the air bearing has 2 (or maybe 4)
tubes which
form the leading edge of a rotor blade. down here goes the compressed
air to
exit via a jet at the tip and spin the rotors. Thats stage 1. I
suspect the air jets
alone will not have enough 'oomph', an so will probably have to have
some fuel
added and burnt. I think the fuel wil make its way up via a seperate
tube and
mix in the tip. Glow ignition would be favoured, to avoid having to
run wires down
there to - heat the plugs pre flight then not have to worry about
them.
Im not really sure if its a jet ot a rocket (think its an unusual jet
- remote air
breathing). anyway Id rather the tips dont melt / fly off /
shrapnelise
If I can get a rotor that works and will lift its own auxilary
equipment then I hope
to make an RC heli from it.
I think that 1/4" bar with an appropriate hole drilled in it is all
thats required, but
like I said this is a totally new area for me, so any advice is
welcomed
cheers
Dave
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Posted by Peter Fairbrother on February 21, 2008, 6:48 pm
Please log in for more thread options dave sanderson wrote:
>> dave sanderson wrote:
>>> evening all,
>>> Ive got (yet another) project in planning. It will involve some small
>>> jet nozzles (about 1/4" or less) .
>>> They will be subjected to centrifugal force (disk of about 12 -18" dia
>>> doing a few thousand rpm), and supplied with compressed air from
>>> a seperate source. I think probably an inconel combustor/nozzle
>>> would do, but which inconel, and where would I get it?
>>> Would stainless be any better?
>>> There are people here with more rocket experience than me (zero) so
>>> Im asking for opinions, and also sources?
>>> cheers
>>> Dave
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> I'm a bit confused by your post, but I'm one of very few (lawful) rocket
>> engine builders in the UK.
>>
>> Can you give me some more details? I may be able to help, but I don't
>> understand what you want to do. Is it a rotary rocket? Powered by
>> compressed air, or what?
>>
>> Inconel is usually okay for jet nozzles, but you may well have problems
>> if you want to use it for rocket nozzles. What sort of inconel do you
>> want? Bar, tube, sheet? What grade?
>>
>> -- Peter Fairbrother
>
> Hi Peter,
> hoped you'd see this one. (remembered your rocketry background)
> Yes, thats the question. This is a new field for me.
> Do you know of the Fairey Rotodyne? If not think helicopter with
> rocket/jet
> mounted to the rotor tips. This is the kind of thing Im thinking of.
> Its just an 'in my head' design at the moment, not even sure if its
> feasible,
> but basically a motor/engine powers a small compressor. This air is
> fed up
> a tube where the mainshaft would sit and into an airbearing/thrust
> assy for the
> rotor head. The 'spinny' part of the air bearing has 2 (or maybe 4)
> tubes which
> form the leading edge of a rotor blade. down here goes the compressed
> air to
> exit via a jet at the tip and spin the rotors. Thats stage 1. I
> suspect the air jets
> alone will not have enough 'oomph', an so will probably have to have
> some fuel
> added and burnt. I think the fuel wil make its way up via a seperate
> tube and
> mix in the tip. Glow ignition would be favoured, to avoid having to
> run wires down
> there to - heat the plugs pre flight then not have to worry about
> them.
> Im not really sure if its a jet ot a rocket (think its an unusual jet
> - remote air
> breathing). anyway Id rather the tips dont melt / fly off /
> shrapnelise
> If I can get a rotor that works and will lift its own auxilary
> equipment then I hope
> to make an RC heli from it.
> I think that 1/4" bar with an appropriate hole drilled in it is all
> thats required, but
> like I said this is a totally new area for me, so any advice is
> welcomed
>
> cheers
>
> Dave
A very small fuel/air rocket will have severe problems with the
combustion time or L*, the characteristic length (very roughly the same
thing). What fuel do you plan to use? What chamber pressure, flow rate,
OF ratio? Isp?
If you have no idea about these, a place to start is Huzel and Huang
Modern Engineering for Design of Liquid-Propellant Rocket Engines,
though it may be over-technical for the beginner. Also find something on
air-breathing design, but I can't recommend anything offhand.
One of the great advantages of rotary rockets is that liquid fuels and
oxidisers can be pressurised by centrifugal action, but this doesn't
work for gases or air. On the other hand, you don't have to store
oxidiser in your design, and the nitrogen in the air is useful reaction
mass.
Pulse jets, or even ramjets, are possibly a better idea.
You will almost certainly need Inconel 718 (or X-750, or HX, or Haynes
230) for such an engine, most likely 600-series Inconels won't do.
I don't know offhand of a small-scale source of 1/4" 718 bar, but Wren
sell 6mm tube which might be of use, at £30 per meter:
http://wrenturbines.co.uk/accessories.php?show=acc_home
I can let you have 300 mm of 10mm 718 bar for £17 plus postage at cost
#if# you can convince me your design might work (I'm not willing to let
stuff like this go, except to good causes, as it is extremely hard to
get in the first place).
If you can find it cheaper please let me know - I'll buy some myself!
You might consider using 316 stainless for prototypes - cheaper.
easier-to-get, and easier to machine.
My email is real if you want to continue offlist.
-- Peter Fairbrother
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Posted by Ron van Sommeren on February 21, 2008, 8:02 pm
Please log in for more thread options > If not think helicopter with rocket/jet mounted to the rotor tips.
Dutch development, 1956
http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/nhi_kolibri.php
<http://www.aviodrome.nl/themapark/expositie/collectie-overzicht/M-W.asp>
-> N.H.I. (Sobeh) H.2 Kolibri & N.H.I. H.3 Kolibri
Prettig weekend ;-) Ron
near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
int. e-fly-in http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans
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> Ive got (yet another) project in planning. It will involve some small
> jet nozzles (about 1/4" or less) .
> They will be subjected to centrifugal force (disk of about 12 -18" dia
> doing a few thousand rpm), and supplied with compressed air from
> a seperate source. I think probably an inconel combustor/nozzle
> would do, but which inconel, and where would I get it?
> Would stainless be any better?
> There are people here with more rocket experience than me (zero) so
> Im asking for opinions, and also sources?
>
> cheers
>
> Dave