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Model Engineering in UK - Model engineering, metal crafts in UK
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Posted by Christopher Tidy on September 27, 2006, 12:24 am
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Hi folks,
I'm pondering the question of whether I need a bigger welder. I
currently have a Cytringan "Bantam" 180 A oil-cooled machine. It's
almost identical to the more common Pickhill and Oxford "Bantam" sets.
Perhaps users of these British oil-cooled machines could give me their
thoughts here?
I have build a lot of stuff using 3 mm thick mild steel. My current
welder copes with this comfortably. A while ago I switched to using 6011
electrodes instead of 6013 because I wasn't happy with the strength of
the welds I was getting and was also having some problems with slag
inclusions in awkward welds. 6011 electrodes are giving me much stronger
welds, but need a higher open circuit voltage to strike an arc. So now I
am using the 80 V terminal on my welder instead of the 50 V terminal.
This is still fine for welding 3 mm and 4 mm steel with 3.25 mm
electrodes as it gives an output up to 120 A. But I have bigger projects
in mind. I want to make a chassis for my phase convertor and a frame for
a hydraulic press. These will require at least 6 mm steel. I want the
welds to have a similar strength and stiffness to the parent metal. In
other words I don't want to be using thicker steel for little gain. So I
want to keep using the 6011 electrodes which I've been very pleased
with. But I'm not sure that I'm going to get adequate penetration in a
single pass using 3.25 mm electrodes on my current machine. I'm not sure
if I should move up to 4.0 mm or 4.7 mm electrodes. And I don't want to
be struggling with a task of which my welder is barely capable.
So does anyone have strong feelings about whether or not my welder is up
to the job? If I was to get another machine I would almost certainly go
for another Oxford-style oil-cooled machine. Probably a 300 A @ 50 V /
200 A @ 80 V machine. A fine current adjustment would be nice too. I
believe there's a machine in the Oxford range which roughly meets this
specification. I also like the really old cube-shaped English Electric
machines, but I'm not sure that they have an 80 V output. Anyone in the
Midlands got an idle machine they want to sell?
Best wishes,
Chris
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Posted by david.sanderson@bem.fki-et.com on September 27, 2006, 3:14 am
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Christopher Tidy wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I'm pondering the question of whether I need a bigger welder. I
> currently have a Cytringan "Bantam" 180 A oil-cooled machine. It's
> almost identical to the more common Pickhill and Oxford "Bantam" sets.
> Perhaps users of these British oil-cooled machines could give me their
> thoughts here?
>
> I have build a lot of stuff using 3 mm thick mild steel. My current
> welder copes with this comfortably. A while ago I switched to using 6011
> electrodes instead of 6013 because I wasn't happy with the strength of
> the welds I was getting and was also having some problems with slag
> inclusions in awkward welds. 6011 electrodes are giving me much stronger
> welds, but need a higher open circuit voltage to strike an arc. So now I
> am using the 80 V terminal on my welder instead of the 50 V terminal.
>
> This is still fine for welding 3 mm and 4 mm steel with 3.25 mm
> electrodes as it gives an output up to 120 A. But I have bigger projects
> in mind. I want to make a chassis for my phase convertor and a frame for
> a hydraulic press. These will require at least 6 mm steel. I want the
> welds to have a similar strength and stiffness to the parent metal. In
> other words I don't want to be using thicker steel for little gain. So I
> want to keep using the 6011 electrodes which I've been very pleased
> with. But I'm not sure that I'm going to get adequate penetration in a
> single pass using 3.25 mm electrodes on my current machine. I'm not sure
> if I should move up to 4.0 mm or 4.7 mm electrodes. And I don't want to
> be struggling with a task of which my welder is barely capable.
>
Would you not do multiple passes on 6mm? With properly vee'd plates
this would surely
be the way to ensure proper penertation and sound weldment. Im not
qualified, though I have taken a welding course at the local college,
and there we were taught to use multiple runs on 6mm plates. In that
case wouldnt the smaller electrodes do fine, even if it takes slightly
longer to make the completed weld.
Dave
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Posted by Tim Leech on September 27, 2006, 4:00 am
Please log in for more thread options On 27 Sep 2006 00:14:39 -0700, "david.sanderson@bem.fki-et.com"
>
>Christopher Tidy wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I'm pondering the question of whether I need a bigger welder. I
>> currently have a Cytringan "Bantam" 180 A oil-cooled machine. It's
>> almost identical to the more common Pickhill and Oxford "Bantam" sets.
>> Perhaps users of these British oil-cooled machines could give me their
>> thoughts here?
>>
>> I have build a lot of stuff using 3 mm thick mild steel. My current
>> welder copes with this comfortably. A while ago I switched to using 6011
>> electrodes instead of 6013 because I wasn't happy with the strength of
>> the welds I was getting and was also having some problems with slag
>> inclusions in awkward welds. 6011 electrodes are giving me much stronger
>> welds, but need a higher open circuit voltage to strike an arc. So now I
>> am using the 80 V terminal on my welder instead of the 50 V terminal.
>>
>> This is still fine for welding 3 mm and 4 mm steel with 3.25 mm
>> electrodes as it gives an output up to 120 A. But I have bigger projects
>> in mind. I want to make a chassis for my phase convertor and a frame for
>> a hydraulic press. These will require at least 6 mm steel. I want the
>> welds to have a similar strength and stiffness to the parent metal. In
>> other words I don't want to be using thicker steel for little gain. So I
>> want to keep using the 6011 electrodes which I've been very pleased
>> with. But I'm not sure that I'm going to get adequate penetration in a
>> single pass using 3.25 mm electrodes on my current machine. I'm not sure
>> if I should move up to 4.0 mm or 4.7 mm electrodes. And I don't want to
>> be struggling with a task of which my welder is barely capable.
>>
>
>Would you not do multiple passes on 6mm? With properly vee'd plates
>this would surely
>be the way to ensure proper penertation and sound weldment. Im not
>qualified, though I have taken a welding course at the local college,
>and there we were taught to use multiple runs on 6mm plates. In that
>case wouldnt the smaller electrodes do fine, even if it takes slightly
>longer to make the completed weld.
>
A 180A set is going to struggle with some varieties of 4mm rod, others
it will be fine. Try a different variety of 6013, Murex Zodian
Universal are good and easy to use, though I prefer Vodex (harder to
use) for verticals. Both are pricier than some, but the cheaper rods
often have more flux which is more likely to give you trouble with
inclusions. As for welding 6mm plate, I would use 3.25 for most welds
anyway, with multiple passes where needed.
I'm not a qualified welder, but have done many hours of welding 6mm
plate, & used nothing more than a 180A Oxford for about 20 years.
BTW I've got a 250A Oxford set looking for a new home. It's old &
scruffy, it has dual voltage and fine control, it works fine but there
seems to be a *very* slight oil leak from the tank since I put fresh
oil in it 6 months ago.
I presume that if you're thinking of a 300A set you have a 3-phase
supply to run it?
Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Vintage diesel engine service
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Posted by Christopher Tidy on September 27, 2006, 5:36 am
Please log in for more thread options Tim Leech wrote:
<snip>
> A 180A set is going to struggle with some varieties of 4mm rod, others
> it will be fine. Try a different variety of 6013, Murex Zodian
> Universal are good and easy to use, though I prefer Vodex (harder to
> use) for verticals. Both are pricier than some, but the cheaper rods
> often have more flux which is more likely to give you trouble with
> inclusions. As for welding 6mm plate, I would use 3.25 for most welds
> anyway, with multiple passes where needed.
I was hoping to avoid multiple passes if possible. I find that single
passes are neater and less trouble, especially on short welds like the
ones I'm planning. Maybe that means I need more practice at welding, I
don't know.
> I'm not a qualified welder, but have done many hours of welding 6mm
> plate, & used nothing more than a 180A Oxford for about 20 years.
> BTW I've got a 250A Oxford set looking for a new home. It's old &
> scruffy, it has dual voltage and fine control, it works fine but there
> seems to be a *very* slight oil leak from the tank since I put fresh
> oil in it 6 months ago.
I was really looking for something trouble free, but I'll bear it in
mind. Whereabouts are you? Dutton is somewhere near Warrington, isn't
it? Any idea of a price you're looking for?
> I presume that if you're thinking of a 300A set you have a 3-phase
> supply to run it?
No, but I'm under the impression that the RT300 is the biggest Oxford
that can be configured for single phase. I might not use it at 300 A
right now, but I was thinking that if I'm going to have two Oxfords, I
might as well buy some extra capacity now, rather than regret not having
it later!
Thanks for the advice.
Best wishes,
Chris
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Posted by Tim Leech on September 28, 2006, 5:10 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:36:10 +0000, Christopher Tidy
>Tim Leech wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> BTW I've got a 250A Oxford set looking for a new home. It's old &
>> scruffy, it has dual voltage and fine control, it works fine but there
>> seems to be a *very* slight oil leak from the tank since I put fresh
>> oil in it 6 months ago.
>
>I was really looking for something trouble free, but I'll bear it in
>mind. Whereabouts are you? Dutton is somewhere near Warrington, isn't
>it? Any idea of a price you're looking for?
>
75 quid? There must be a few quids' worth of copper in it, at current
prices <G>
The oil leak is *very* slight, I've washed it off a couple of times to
try to find the source but no luck. The level doensn't go down
noticeably, but there's a 'damp' patch on the floor after a few weeks.
BTW it's too heavy for a normal car boot.
Tim
Dutton Dry-Dock
Traditional & Modern canal craft repairs
Vintage diesel engine service
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>
> I'm pondering the question of whether I need a bigger welder. I
> currently have a Cytringan "Bantam" 180 A oil-cooled machine. It's
> almost identical to the more common Pickhill and Oxford "Bantam" sets.
> Perhaps users of these British oil-cooled machines could give me their
> thoughts here?
>
> I have build a lot of stuff using 3 mm thick mild steel. My current
> welder copes with this comfortably. A while ago I switched to using 6011
> electrodes instead of 6013 because I wasn't happy with the strength of
> the welds I was getting and was also having some problems with slag
> inclusions in awkward welds. 6011 electrodes are giving me much stronger
> welds, but need a higher open circuit voltage to strike an arc. So now I
> am using the 80 V terminal on my welder instead of the 50 V terminal.
>
> This is still fine for welding 3 mm and 4 mm steel with 3.25 mm
> electrodes as it gives an output up to 120 A. But I have bigger projects
> in mind. I want to make a chassis for my phase convertor and a frame for
> a hydraulic press. These will require at least 6 mm steel. I want the
> welds to have a similar strength and stiffness to the parent metal. In
> other words I don't want to be using thicker steel for little gain. So I
> want to keep using the 6011 electrodes which I've been very pleased
> with. But I'm not sure that I'm going to get adequate penetration in a
> single pass using 3.25 mm electrodes on my current machine. I'm not sure
> if I should move up to 4.0 mm or 4.7 mm electrodes. And I don't want to
> be struggling with a task of which my welder is barely capable.
>