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Posted by on October 1, 2006, 9:32 am
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Duncan Munro wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 11:52:26 +0100, Greg wrote:
>
> > In short, if you want quality that lasts you are free to pay for it, if=
you
> > want to cut costs you are free to do so and why not but don't complain =
about
> > the quality.
>
> If it has a years warranty, they should honour it and the op has every
> right to complain.
>
> --
> Duncan Munro
> http://www.duncanamps.co.uk/metal/
Duncan, I agree with you that if it is under warranty it should be
returned to fit for purpose for the period (full period even the last
few days) of the warranty. Despite Gregs' opinion that you get what
you pay for it is an investment of over =A3700 and should remain
serviceable for at least the warranty period.
However, one of the reasons I would not buy a machine from this
particular organisation is their warranty statement on their web page
under "Terms and Conditions" where it says "Goods supplied are
guaranteed for a period of twelve (12) months from the date of
delivery". After saying items must be returned to them at the customers
expense it continues "Where Chester are required to send an engineer(s)
to a customers premises then travelling and subsequent expenses shall
be paid by the customer". Their last sentence is the killer for me
"Chester accepts no liability for defects caused by the customer's
installation, modification and operation." I would need to ask what
they do accept responsibility for? Obviously I have no way of knowing
if this was their warranty statement at the time of delivery but it is
their current policy.
So if they were to abide by their warranty they could well send an
engineer to fit a couple of 2p seals (if they bothered to stock them)
and then present a hefty bill for "travelling and expenses". So their
statement that it is not worth an engineer's time should be challenged
as the customer is not expected to pay for that, but I would also want
a clear statement of what their expenses are likely to be before I
insisted on a visit.
As a comparison one of the other major importers of the same machine
covers parts and labour for the first 6 months with the machine being
returned and re-delivered at the importers cost or an engineer visiting
the customers premises again at the importers cost. For the second six
months parts are supplied free of charge and delivery paid for by the
importer. Yes on average this organisation is slightly more expensive
than Chester.
In my youth (long ago) I used to believe that traders needed to keep
their reputation and they would do what was "right" by the customer.
Whilst this seemed to hold true for many years I noticed a gradual
change when people stopped selling what they had made themselves and
started selling someone else's crap. I suppose it was about the time
that we started to buy on price as the main criteria and in my
experience poor quality is not unique to China, Taiwan, India or any
other manufacturing area. It's usually down to the importer buying
"cheap" and selling "dear". In my experience there are still a few
traders who will "share" a little of this profit margin with their
customers and try to ensure that the customer returns for another
purchase. You have to look to find them. Have you tried to get a spare
for that "special offer drill" that was bought from a major DIY chain a
year or so ago?
I have never been a "man for detail" but in todays world I find it
essential to read the small print before I part with my money, it might
not give me any better protection but at least I know the risks. I find
it difficult to understand how an organisation can prosper when it
treats it's customers to such poor service, but then again I'm just old
fashioned as my kids enjoy telling me. Sad world isn't it.
Best regards
Keith
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Posted by Greg on October 1, 2006, 11:35 am
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"Duncan, I agree with you that if it is under warranty it should be
returned to fit for purpose for the period (full period even the last
few days) of the warranty. Despite Gregs' opinion that you get what
you pay for it is an investment of over £700 and should remain
serviceable for at least the warranty period."
And how much would it have cost if built to a decent standard?, £1500
maybe?, as I said you get what you pay for.
"Where Chester are required to send an engineer(s)
to a customers premises then travelling and subsequent expenses shall
be paid by the customer"
Again what do you expect, they probably make £200 profit on that machine so
how can you possibly expect them to include on-site service when it's not a
legal requirement?. It would cost them hundreds to send someone half way up
the country for a day to repair it. If you buy a telly from Currys do you
get on-site servive?, the hell you do!, I've had to take a 28" telly back
twice in the space of a week and believe me that's not easy.
Greg
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Posted by on October 1, 2006, 1:44 pm
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Greg wrote:
>
> "Duncan, I agree with you that if it is under warranty it should be
> returned to fit for purpose for the period (full period even the last
> few days) of the warranty. Despite Gregs' opinion that you get what
> you pay for it is an investment of over =A3700 and should remain
> serviceable for at least the warranty period."
>
> And how much would it have cost if built to a decent standard?, =A31500
> maybe?, as I said you get what you pay for.
And how much to ensure that the seals would last their warranty period
- perhaps another pound or so? It is Chester's warranty and therefore
their responsibility to ensure the item is fit for purpose or repair
it. They set the price and they write their warranty not the customer
>
> "Where Chester are required to send an engineer(s)
> to a customers premises then travelling and subsequent expenses shall
> be paid by the customer"
>
> Again what do you expect, they probably make =A3200 profit on that machin=
e so
> how can you possibly expect them to include on-site service when it's not=
a
> legal requirement?. It would cost them hundreds to send someone half way =
up
> the country for a day to repair it. If you buy a telly from Currys do you
> get on-site servive?, the hell you do!, I've had to take a 28" telly back
> twice in the space of a week and believe me that's not easy.
I didn't say they needed to send an engineer to fix it, their own
warranty mentions that. Therefore they give the impression to a
customer that this could happen. The other importer I quoted was more
honest about the equipment and just agrees to provide the parts free of
charge after 6 months. I've just bought a major electrical item from
Currys and chose to pay extra for machine where the manufacturer
provided a 5 year on site warranty, my choice. I don't see Chester
offering such an option.
After our last discussion Greg I just think that we see the world
differently so I won't comment on this one any further.
Best regards
Keith
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Posted by Mark Rand on October 1, 2006, 4:27 pm
Please log in for more thread options On 1 Oct 2006 10:44:22 -0700, jontom_1uk@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>Greg wrote:
>>
>> "Duncan, I agree with you that if it is under warranty it should be
>> returned to fit for purpose for the period (full period even the last
>> few days) of the warranty. Despite Gregs' opinion that you get what
>> you pay for it is an investment of over £700 and should remain
>> serviceable for at least the warranty period."
>>
>> And how much would it have cost if built to a decent standard?, £1500
>> maybe?, as I said you get what you pay for.
>
>And how much to ensure that the seals would last their warranty period
>- perhaps another pound or so? It is Chester's warranty and therefore
>their responsibility to ensure the item is fit for purpose or repair
>it. They set the price and they write their warranty not the customer
>>
>> "Where Chester are required to send an engineer(s)
>> to a customers premises then travelling and subsequent expenses shall
>> be paid by the customer"
>>
>> Again what do you expect, they probably make £200 profit on that machine so
>> how can you possibly expect them to include on-site service when it's not a
>> legal requirement?. It would cost them hundreds to send someone half way up
>> the country for a day to repair it. If you buy a telly from Currys do you
>> get on-site servive?, the hell you do!, I've had to take a 28" telly back
>> twice in the space of a week and believe me that's not easy.
>
>I didn't say they needed to send an engineer to fix it, their own
>warranty mentions that. Therefore they give the impression to a
>customer that this could happen. The other importer I quoted was more
>honest about the equipment and just agrees to provide the parts free of
>charge after 6 months. I've just bought a major electrical item from
>Currys and chose to pay extra for machine where the manufacturer
>provided a 5 year on site warranty, my choice. I don't see Chester
>offering such an option.
>
>After our last discussion Greg I just think that we see the world
>differently so I won't comment on this one any further.
>
>Best regards
>
>Keith
One must point out that the assorted Sale of goods and services acts indicate
that a good should last for a time that would be reasonable for that class of
equipment. Six years would be more reasonable than one year for a lathe, so
their warrantee would be considered irrelevant by the Trading Standards
office.
Contrarywise. An oil seal could, quite reasonably, be counted as a consumable
and not be expected to be covered under the warrantee.
If it's the oil seal, live with it and get a better one for a fiver.
If it's the mandrel, get trading standards involved and start talking about a
refund or replacement lathe.
In either case, possibly treat dealing with Chester as a mistake and don't
make the same mistake again.
This advice is worth what you paid for it.
Mark Rand
RTFM
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Posted by on October 1, 2006, 5:33 pm
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Mark Rand wrote:
>
> One must point out that the assorted Sale of goods and services acts indi=
cate
> that a good should last for a time that would be reasonable for that clas=
s of
> equipment. Six years would be more reasonable than one year for a lathe, =
so
> their warrantee would be considered irrelevant by the Trading Standards
> office.
Mark, I would agree with your point in general but it is a bit of a
grey area and would bring in Greg's point of acceptable performance
against price. My point was that Chester had guaranteed it for a period
of twelve months therefore they should do the minimum THEY said they
would do and fix it or at the very least provide the parts. The fact
that this guarantee, in my opinion, reduces what life any customer
should expect from this class of equipment is more problematic to argue
successfully, particularly as the customer purchased the machine under
those terms and conditions. Although, developing your point further
those terms could well be considered unreasonable in the case of this
class of equipment. Trouble is with legal advice from =A3150 p/hr
upwards we are not likely to find anyone willing to risk taking the
point to court for a =A3700 machine.
>
> Contrarywise. An oil seal could, quite reasonably, be counted as a consum=
able
> and not be expected to be covered under the warrantee.
Interesting point this one, I would agree as long as Chester in their
servicing manual have identified the oil seal as an item that will
require checking and replacing as necessary during servicing. I suppose
a "check for oil leaks" line in the servicing schedule could be argued
as identifying it as a possible consumable. It's interesting as the
automotive industry goes to great lengths to reduce required service
items for the fleet market and I can't remember a recent example of the
2p seal (provided free under parts warranty) costing =A3700 to replace.
Although a friend of mine was moaning about the cost of replacing some
transmission seals on his nearly new Landrover thingy. I do seem to
remember it happening on a Japanese motorcycle of the 1980's. I'm
getting old so it might have been longer ago than that.
>
> If it's the oil seal, live with it and get a better one for a fiver.
I think that 12 months life for an unpressurised oil seal working at
what 2000rpm at most is unacceptable. I would also want Chester to
look at the spindle and bearings to see why the seal has failed after
so short a service life. It might be that there are more expensive
items on the way out.
>
>
> In either case, possibly treat dealing with Chester as a mistake and don't
> make the same mistake again.
>
>
Again, can't argue with this advice and if more customers raised their
expectations and demanded reasonable service then companies who wished
to sell us goods would be forced to up their performance. I for one
would accept the slight increase in cost for reasonable (fair)
aftersales service. I do have sympathy for the traders though and have
seen some of the items returned by "honest" customers for replacement.
Funny how it's always the last sweet in the box that's off!
> This advice is worth what you paid for it.
Worth more than mine then Mark <Bg>, my comments are based only on my
opinion of what is fair and appropriate. My painful experience in life
is that if we get legal minds involved it always costs me a LOT of
money and I never understand the result. <VBg>
>=20
Best regards
Keith
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