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Subject Author Date
lathe tools bert 05-22-2008
Posted by Peter Neill on May 23, 2008, 12:10 pm
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wrote:

>
>
>> I started out with HSS blanks and grinding my own, bought a set of
>> indexable tips and now use HSS home ground again, leaving the carbide
>> tips for roughing cast iron. It's a hobby for me and the grinding I find
>> a great de-stresser! (not distressing). I find it easier to get a good
>> finish with sharp HSS rather than carbide.
>>
>> Steve
>
>I might suggest you're not using the right carbide inserts then. To repeat,
>yet again, something I've posted many times over the years. Most carbide
>tips are designed for high powered machines and high volume work. For use on
>steel they have slightly rounded edges to create sturdiness and resistance
>to chipping and they rely on machine rigidity, horsepower and rpm to push
>them through the material being machined. What you need for small lathes and
>hobby use, regardless of the work material, is razor sharp edges which
>you'll only find on uncoated (usually) non-ferrous carbide inserts. Edges
>very similar to what you'd grind on HSS anyway. They will generally be
>bright silver or perhaps carbide grey. If the tips you are using are gold,
>black or any other dark colour they won't cut worth a damn on a small lathe
>on most materials. They'll just push off the work and tear it to shreds.
>What you have to appreciate is that what the carbide insert manuals and
>guidelines mean by finishing cuts on a CNC lathe are still probably deeper
>cuts than the roughing cuts most of us use on manual lathes.
>
>If you stick with inserts designed for aluminium you'll get perfect results
>on steel, cast iron, brass, bronze and just about anything else you want to
>tickle away at a few thou at a time on a small lathe and the inserts will
>last almost indefinitely if you don't abuse them. HSS might get the same
>finish but it'll blunt every five minutes. If you want to take 4mm deep cuts
>in EN40B then sure you need 10 hp and an insert designed for roughing steel.
>
>I use a single carbide insert turning and facing tool with non ferrous tips
>for 95% of the work I do on my Student. HSS has its uses when you need to
>grind a special shape or make a very small boring tool for a one off job but
>for most turning and facing I'd say get the largest shanked tool your lathe
>can accept, some sharp non ferrous inserts to fit it and you can forget
>buggering about on bench grinders every five minutes for the rest of your
>life.
>
>My mate's £50,000 CNC lathes can use a steel specific, rounded edge insert
>and still get a mirror finish on hard materials like EN52B and 21/4N valve
>steels. If I try to use the same insert on my Student it just buggers
>everything it touches. My 40 year old machine has 50 times the backlash his
>new ones do though, half the rpm, one tenth of the hp and no coolant. It's
>just a matter of horses for courses.
>
>If you want to spend your life learning how to sharpen tools rather than
>actually cut metal then HSS is the very thing. You'll just die very
>accomplished rather than having ever made anything.

I completely agree.
Whilst you can get a better finish with HSS on a small lathe, the only
thing I use HSS for on my ML7 is screwcutting.
Everything else I use carbide insert tips.

My favourite tool is one of these:
http://www.greenwood-tools.co.uk/ishop/728/shopscr16.html with a
Sandvik GC4025 insert with a 0.2 radius tip. This grade is designed
for stainless but works pretty much perfectly for just about anything.

And if I need a *really* fine finish or half a thou' or so taken off,
then I use an SCLCR holder with a CCGT insert made for aluminium, like
this:
http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Tools/CCGPInsert.jpg
works fine, even on stainless. (ignore the mispelt 'CCGP' in the
link).

Life's too short and time in workshop too limited to spend all your
time grinding HSS, albeit this is defintely a usefull skill to have.
However, if you get the HSS grind wrong - which beginners always do-
then you'll be constantly frustrated with the poor cutting ability and
lousy finish until you get it just right.

Peter

Posted by on May 23, 2008, 3:22 pm
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> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> I started out with HSS blanks and grinding my own, =A0bought a set of
> >> indexable tips and now use HSS home ground again, =A0leaving the carbid=
e
> >> tips for roughing cast iron. =A0It's a hobby for me and the grinding I =
find
> >> a great de-stresser! =A0(not distressing). =A0I find it easier to get a=
good
> >> finish with sharp HSS rather than carbide.
>
> >> Steve
>
> >I might suggest you're not using the right carbide inserts then. To repea=
t,
> >yet again, something I've posted many times over the years. Most carbide
> >tips are designed for high powered machines and high volume work. For use=
on
> >steel they have slightly rounded edges to create sturdiness and resistanc=
e
> >to chipping and they rely on machine rigidity, horsepower and rpm to push=

> >them through the material being machined. What you need for small lathes =
and
> >hobby use, regardless of the work material, is razor sharp edges which
> >you'll only find on uncoated (usually) non-ferrous carbide inserts. Edges=

> >very similar to what you'd grind on HSS anyway. They will generally be
> >bright silver or perhaps carbide grey. If the tips you are using are gold=
,
> >black or any other dark colour they won't cut worth a damn on a small lat=
he
> >on most materials. They'll just push off the work and tear it to shreds.
> >What you have to appreciate is that what the carbide insert manuals and
> >guidelines mean by finishing cuts on a CNC lathe are still probably deepe=
r
> >cuts than the roughing cuts most of us use on manual lathes.
>
> >If you stick with inserts designed for aluminium you'll get perfect resul=
ts
> >on steel, cast iron, brass, bronze and just about anything else you want =
to
> >tickle away at a few thou at a time on a small lathe and the inserts will=

> >last almost indefinitely if you don't abuse them. HSS might get the same
> >finish but it'll blunt every five minutes. If you want to take 4mm deep c=
uts
> >in EN40B then sure you need 10 hp and an insert designed for roughing ste=
el.
>
> >I use a single carbide insert turning and facing tool with non ferrous ti=
ps
> >for 95% of the work I do on my Student. HSS has its uses when you need to=

> >grind a special shape or make a very small boring tool for a one off job =
but
> >for most turning and facing I'd say get the largest shanked tool your lat=
he
> >can accept, some sharp non ferrous inserts to fit it and you can forget
> >buggering about on bench grinders every five minutes for the rest of your=

> >life.
>
> >My mate's =A350,000 CNC lathes can use a steel specific, rounded edge ins=
ert
> >and still get a mirror finish on hard materials like EN52B and 21/4N valv=
e
> >steels. If I try to use the same insert on my Student it just buggers
> >everything it touches. My 40 year old machine has 50 times the backlash h=
is
> >new ones do though, half the rpm, one tenth of the hp and no coolant. It'=
s
> >just a matter of horses for courses.
>
> >If you want to spend your life learning how to sharpen tools rather than
> >actually cut metal then HSS is the very thing. You'll just die very
> >accomplished rather than having ever made anything.
>
> I completely agree.
> Whilst you can get a better finish with HSS on a small lathe, the only
> thing I use HSS for on my ML7 is screwcutting.
> Everything else I use carbide insert tips.
>
> My favourite tool is one of these:http://www.greenwood-tools.co.uk/ishop/7=
28/shopscr16.htmlwith a
> Sandvik GC4025 insert with a 0.2 radius tip. This grade is designed
> for stainless but works pretty much perfectly for just about anything.
>
> And if I need a *really* fine finish or half a thou' or so taken off,
> then I use an SCLCR holder with a CCGT insert made for aluminium, like
> this:http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Tools/CCGPInsert.jpg
> works fine, even on stainless. (ignore the mispelt 'CCGP' in the
> link).
>
> Life's too short and time in workshop too limited to spend all your
> time grinding HSS, albeit this is defintely a usefull skill to have.
> However, if you get the HSS grind wrong - which beginners always do-
> then you'll be constantly frustrated with the poor cutting ability and
> lousy finish until you get it just right.
>
> Peter- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Peter Hi, a friend of mine by way of a gift of a couple, introduced me
to the CCGT (aluminium) inserts a while ago when I still had time to
go into the workshop. In planning a return to work :-), I haven't yet
found an economic source (ie less than =A35 each), have you - or is it
one of those instances that the bullet just has to be bitten?

Regards

Keith (short of both time and money)

Posted by Peter Neill on May 23, 2008, 3:56 pm
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On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT), jontom_1uk@hotmail.com
wrote:

>
>Peter Hi, a friend of mine by way of a gift of a couple, introduced me
>to the CCGT (aluminium) inserts a while ago when I still had time to
>go into the workshop. In planning a return to work :-), I haven't yet
>found an economic source (ie less than £5 each), have you - or is it
>one of those instances that the bullet just has to be bitten?
>
>Regards
>
>Keith (short of both time and money)


Keith, sent you an e-mail.
Much cheaper than £5 a pop <G>

Peter

Posted by Steve on May 23, 2008, 5:15 pm
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> On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT), jontom_1uk@hotmail.com
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Peter Hi, a friend of mine by way of a gift of a couple, introduced me
>>to the CCGT (aluminium) inserts a while ago when I still had time to
>>go into the workshop. In planning a return to work :-), I haven't yet
>>found an economic source (ie less than £5 each), have you - or is it
>>one of those instances that the bullet just has to be bitten?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Keith (short of both time and money)
>
>
> Keith, sent you an e-mail.
> Much cheaper than £5 a pop <G>
>
> Peter

Peter - wouldn't mind the same pointer -

eMail is good

Steve


Posted by Peter Fairbrother on May 23, 2008, 10:25 pm
Please log in for more thread options
Steve wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 May 2008 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT), jontom_1uk@hotmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Peter Hi, a friend of mine by way of a gift of a couple, introduced me
>>> to the CCGT (aluminium) inserts a while ago when I still had time to
>>> go into the workshop. In planning a return to work :-), I haven't yet
>>> found an economic source (ie less than £5 each), have you - or is it
>>> one of those instances that the bullet just has to be bitten?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Keith (short of both time and money)
>>
>>
>> Keith, sent you an e-mail.
>> Much cheaper than £5 a pop <G>
>>
>> Peter
>
> Peter - wouldn't mind the same pointer -
>
> eMail is good

me too!

Alternatively, does anyone have any for-aluminium TPUN or TPMR 11030x /
22x inserts I could try? Beer tokens ok.

-- Peter Fairbrother

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