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Welding Forums - Welding of materials for manufacture & repair.
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Posted by SteveB on April 24, 2008, 10:19 pm
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I bought some small 3/32" 6013 long long ago to try to use on .065"
ornamental metal repairs. It was similar in characteristics to me as a 7018
in that you had to get a good sized puddle, and then it burned through. I
liked being able to do the same weld by whipping a 3/32" 6011 with a
negative stinger.
I don't want to be missing something here, as I'm going to buy an assortment
of rods to stock up my rig.
What would be a good setup of metal to see the benefits of a 6013 rod? What
type of joint? Polarity? Just a good setup to show me what this rod will
do. I have seen many praise and promote them, but I've always used mostly
6010 and 7018.
Thanks.
Steve
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Posted by Rick Barter (rvb) on April 25, 2008, 9:54 am
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> I bought some small 3/32" 6013 long long ago to try to use on .065"
> ornamental metal repairs. It was similar in characteristics to me as a 7018
> in that you had to get a good sized puddle, and then it burned through. I
> liked being able to do the same weld by whipping a 3/32" 6011 with a
> negative stinger.
>
> I don't want to be missing something here, as I'm going to buy an assortment
> of rods to stock up my rig.
>
> What would be a good setup of metal to see the benefits of a 6013 rod? What
> type of joint? Polarity? Just a good setup to show me what this rod will
> do. I have seen many praise and promote them, but I've always used mostly
> 6010 and 7018.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve
Try a fillet with some decent size metal (1/4"). Just drag the rod,
don't whip-and-pause. Maybe use a circular motion to get into the
corner and then to wash the puddle up to prevent undercut; just like
7018. I can't comment on 6013 DC- vs. DC+ because I've only used them
with a little AC buzz box. I think (and someone else please confirm
this) that 6013 is meant to be run downhill when doing vertical.
Just my $0.02.
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Posted by Richard Smith on April 25, 2008, 4:45 pm
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> > I bought some small 3/32" 6013 long long ago to try to use on .065"
> > ornamental metal repairs. It was similar in characteristics to me as a 7018
> > in that you had to get a good sized puddle, and then it burned through. I
> > liked being able to do the same weld by whipping a 3/32" 6011 with a
> > negative stinger.
> >
> > I don't want to be missing something here, as I'm going to buy an assortment
> > of rods to stock up my rig.
> >
> > What would be a good setup of metal to see the benefits of a 6013 rod? What
> > type of joint? Polarity? Just a good setup to show me what this rod will
> > do. I have seen many praise and promote them, but I've always used mostly
> > 6010 and 7018.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Steve
>
> Try a fillet with some decent size metal (1/4"). Just drag the rod,
> don't whip-and-pause. Maybe use a circular motion to get into the
> corner and then to wash the puddle up to prevent undercut; just like
> 7018. I can't comment on 6013 DC- vs. DC+ because I've only used them
> with a little AC buzz box. I think (and someone else please confirm
> this) that 6013 is meant to be run downhill when doing vertical.
>
> Just my $0.02.
I've been really looking at how 6013's burn - trying to improve my
welding here where most general welding uses 6013.
I reckoned in tests yesterday that some 3.2mm / 1/8th" 6013's burned
smoother on DCEN than DCEP but are always smooth-burning. The DCEN
slag spectacularly self-peeled from bead-on-plate runs when I was
timing the burn time of the rod - where with DCEP the slag simply
self-peeled (!). Found at 80A showing on machine that it took 60s to
burn a rod on DCEN vs 60s to 70s to burn the rod on unchanged current
setting but DCEP - so fits with claim that burn-off rate on DCEN is
quicker.
6013 burns very smoothly on DCEN and metal sprays across the arc so
effectively that I couldn't find any use in whipping a 2.5mm / 3/16"
6013 rod at 80A - you couldn't flick the electrode ahead without also
putting slag and or metal ahead. Or as I would put it - you couldn't
get heat without mass with a 6013 on DCEN. Same current and 3.2dia
6013 so lower current density of arc - could whip a vert-up
bead-on-plate, but trying into the corner of a vert-up T-fillet and
couldn't stop metal and slag deposited ahead defeating the purpose of
whipping. Turn up the current for fusion and you also increase the
spray of metal - which defeats the intent of trying to be able to
whip.
6013's burn so smoothly on AC that it can be difficult to know what
you are on with a good welding set. Oil-cooled AC welding
transformers are a case in point - they give such a smooth controlled
burn on 6013's that I've never known that you'd want for anything else
(a DC set).
Most 6013 don't have anything like the "bite" / penetration of 7018
rods. Apparently you can tailor the flux properties of Rutile rods
(6013's) much more than for other types (Basics and Cellulosics)
according to an electrode manufacturer I talked with - some 6013's
have reasonable "bite" into the metal and fast-freezing slag giving
better positional welding but a rougher weld surface (the type I
prefer) - whereas others give a very smooth weld bead surface but are
"soft" with little bite and slag control in positional welding isn't
there (the type everyone else seems to prefer). So if you say "I have
6013 rods" its difficult to know what is happening for you.
6013's can be run downhill with high amps.
For strong trusted welds, you weld 6013 vertical up. The mechanical
properties of 6013's are low and don't get worse with bigger bead size
(?), so the tendency with vert-up is to do some kind of weave, usually
triangular like "the Christmas tree", giving the entire fillet or bead
in one go. That's commercial practice you will see in the UK. That
also means you have a big weld pool with lots of heat and fluidity,
which causes the slag to shed off the weld pool, avoiding choking the
arc in slag and throwing slag inclusions, which I find exasperating
when trying to do 7016/7018-type welds (root and cap) with 6013's (as
you have to do in welding school). The amount of heat in the big
weld-pool also means you are pen'ing by reason of the heat washing
away at the vertical-up weld-pool inside surfaces.
I'll keep an eye open for if anyone wants ot correct me on anything.
Rich Smith
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Posted by Private on April 27, 2008, 3:18 pm
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>
>> > I bought some small 3/32" 6013 long long ago to try to use on .065"
>> > ornamental metal repairs. It was similar in characteristics to me as a
>> > 7018
>> > in that you had to get a good sized puddle, and then it burned through.
>> > I
>> > liked being able to do the same weld by whipping a 3/32" 6011 with a
>> > negative stinger.
>> >
>> > I don't want to be missing something here, as I'm going to buy an
>> > assortment
>> > of rods to stock up my rig.
>> >
>> > What would be a good setup of metal to see the benefits of a 6013 rod?
>> > What
>> > type of joint? Polarity? Just a good setup to show me what this rod
>> > will
>> > do. I have seen many praise and promote them, but I've always used
>> > mostly
>> > 6010 and 7018.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Steve
>>
>> Try a fillet with some decent size metal (1/4"). Just drag the rod,
>> don't whip-and-pause. Maybe use a circular motion to get into the
>> corner and then to wash the puddle up to prevent undercut; just like
>> 7018. I can't comment on 6013 DC- vs. DC+ because I've only used them
>> with a little AC buzz box. I think (and someone else please confirm
>> this) that 6013 is meant to be run downhill when doing vertical.
>>
>> Just my $0.02.
>
> I've been really looking at how 6013's burn - trying to improve my
> welding here where most general welding uses 6013.
>
> I reckoned in tests yesterday that some 3.2mm / 1/8th" 6013's burned
> smoother on DCEN than DCEP but are always smooth-burning. The DCEN
> slag spectacularly self-peeled from bead-on-plate runs when I was
> timing the burn time of the rod - where with DCEP the slag simply
> self-peeled (!). Found at 80A showing on machine that it took 60s to
> burn a rod on DCEN vs 60s to 70s to burn the rod on unchanged current
> setting but DCEP - so fits with claim that burn-off rate on DCEN is
> quicker.
>
> 6013 burns very smoothly on DCEN and metal sprays across the arc so
> effectively that I couldn't find any use in whipping a 2.5mm / 3/16"
> 6013 rod at 80A - you couldn't flick the electrode ahead without also
> putting slag and or metal ahead. Or as I would put it - you couldn't
> get heat without mass with a 6013 on DCEN. Same current and 3.2dia
> 6013 so lower current density of arc - could whip a vert-up
> bead-on-plate, but trying into the corner of a vert-up T-fillet and
> couldn't stop metal and slag deposited ahead defeating the purpose of
> whipping. Turn up the current for fusion and you also increase the
> spray of metal - which defeats the intent of trying to be able to
> whip.
>
> 6013's burn so smoothly on AC that it can be difficult to know what
> you are on with a good welding set. Oil-cooled AC welding
> transformers are a case in point - they give such a smooth controlled
> burn on 6013's that I've never known that you'd want for anything else
> (a DC set).
>
> Most 6013 don't have anything like the "bite" / penetration of 7018
> rods. Apparently you can tailor the flux properties of Rutile rods
> (6013's) much more than for other types (Basics and Cellulosics)
> according to an electrode manufacturer I talked with - some 6013's
> have reasonable "bite" into the metal and fast-freezing slag giving
> better positional welding but a rougher weld surface (the type I
> prefer) - whereas others give a very smooth weld bead surface but are
> "soft" with little bite and slag control in positional welding isn't
> there (the type everyone else seems to prefer). So if you say "I have
> 6013 rods" its difficult to know what is happening for you.
>
> 6013's can be run downhill with high amps.
>
> For strong trusted welds, you weld 6013 vertical up. The mechanical
> properties of 6013's are low and don't get worse with bigger bead size
> (?), so the tendency with vert-up is to do some kind of weave, usually
> triangular like "the Christmas tree", giving the entire fillet or bead
> in one go. That's commercial practice you will see in the UK. That
> also means you have a big weld pool with lots of heat and fluidity,
> which causes the slag to shed off the weld pool, avoiding choking the
> arc in slag and throwing slag inclusions, which I find exasperating
> when trying to do 7016/7018-type welds (root and cap) with 6013's (as
> you have to do in welding school). The amount of heat in the big
> weld-pool also means you are pen'ing by reason of the heat washing
> away at the vertical-up weld-pool inside surfaces.
>
> I'll keep an eye open for if anyone wants ot correct me on anything.
>
> Rich Smith
As students, we attempt to memorize specific recommended techniques for each
procedure and specific rod. As our skill set grows we have a large tool box
of techniques we use as the situation demands. Often we are a long walk or
climb from the power source and carry a pouch with several different types
and sizes of rod that can all be used with variations of technique but
without the necessity of climbing down to re-adjust the power source. On
very critical work we will take the time to stretch out a remote control but
for quick (and dirty) work we just adjust our technique and 'do it'.
The XX10,11 &13 series rods are some of the rods capable of being used
successfully with the widest variation in technique and respond well to
this. Every welder should have a 'welding electrode and wire selector
guide' which is usually available free from good industrial welding
suppliers.
Rods fall into three general groupings, they are fast freeze, fast follow
and fast fill.
Fast fill electrodes have large quantities of iron (and other alloying)
powder in the coatings, are normally used flat or vertical up (except xx48)
and with constant arc length and rod angle, they are usually run with
DEEP/DCRP except for very specialized procedures (like DEN, 7018 open root
pass), they are often run with the coating dragging.
Fast freeze and follow electrodes, commonly have little no metal powder in
the coatings and are much more responsive to variation of operator technique
and can be whipped or manipulated with changes in arc length and rod angle,
they are often run vertical down (or more commonly, up) Fast freeze xx10
(&11) are used especially for root and hot pass on pipe.
My suppliers guide lists the following most common types but YMMV.
6010 - fast freeze - cellulostic - deep penetration - DCRP - especially pipe
roots
6010 P- fast freeze - deep penetration - DCRP - especially pipe roots
7010 P - fast freeze - deep penetration - DCRP especially pipeline up or
down
6011 P- fast freeze - cellulostic - good penetration - DCRP or primarily AC
6013 - fast follow, low penetration - low OCV - DC either polarity (SP
preferred) or AC - up or down. (farmer/hobby rod).
6013 P - fast follow, low penetration - low OCV - DC either polarity (SP
preferred) or AC - up or down
7014 - fast fill - low penetration - low OCV - DC either polarity (SP
preferred) or AC (farmer/hobby rod, never seen used industrially)
7024 - FAST fill - low penetration - very high powder - flat or horizontal
only - DCSP or AC very easy (or self cleaning) flux removal - (often called
jet rod, was common high production rod, these jobs now more commonly done
with MIG or flux core wire)
7018 - iron powder - low hydrogen - all position - DCRP or AC - IMHO, BY FAR
the most important and commonly used rod for general fabrication and repair.
If you have a good industrial quality DC welder you will probably use -
90% - 7018 - (3/32 for light stuff with danger of burn though, 1/8 for
general light work, 5/32 for heavier welds particularly horizontal but
vertical if you are good, 3/16 for heavy production, if you can weld this
vertical you are very good, and welding very heavy steel)
10% - 6010 or 7010 - (very little 3/32, lots of 1/8, some 5/32") this rod is
great for tacking and pipe roots and for rusty or dirty steel and if you
have your machine set for large size 7018 you can use it to blow off your
sags or for 'quick and dirty' cutting.
1% - 6013 - normally in smaller sizes (5/64, 3/32, 1/8" used (vertical down)
primarily for very light sheet steel where there is a large danger of
burn-through) the fast follow and low penetration makes them especially
useful for sheet steel as you can move fast and keep ahead of the heat and
burn-through without skip welding. You will not use this rod often (or very
much quantity) but when you do use it you will look like a hero.
If you have a low OCV AC transformer welder then you will make do with 6013
and 7014 while you try to make small 7018 run and IMHO until you realize you
need to get a real welder.
Just my (opinionated and prejudiced) .02, good luck, and practice improves
everything.
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> ornamental metal repairs. It was similar in characteristics to me as a 7018
> in that you had to get a good sized puddle, and then it burned through. I
> liked being able to do the same weld by whipping a 3/32" 6011 with a
> negative stinger.
>
> I don't want to be missing something here, as I'm going to buy an assortment
> of rods to stock up my rig.
>
> What would be a good setup of metal to see the benefits of a 6013 rod? What
> type of joint? Polarity? Just a good setup to show me what this rod will
> do. I have seen many praise and promote them, but I've always used mostly
> 6010 and 7018.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve