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Posted by SteveB on April 23, 2008, 10:11 pm
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My neighbor came to me today to ask that I weld a couple of grab hooks onto
the bucket of his Massey Ferguson front end loader so they can use chains in
certain circumstances, just linking them into the welded on hooks.
The hooks appear to be cast, yet I don't believe they are metallurgically
the same as most cast iron as I have used these grab and slip hooks on
chains, and have had them deform, but not snap like real cast iron would.
Now, where I'm going to weld the hook to ...........
A while back, I burned a hole in my BIL's bucket to mount a trailer ball to
facilitate moving things around that had a hitch. There were two layers of
material, and the topmost thin layer burned in a very weird way. I was able
to punch the 1" hole through both pieces, but it was touch and go as to what
the outcome would be.
I'm wondering if this is going to be a funny situation with the grab hook
being of a cast metal, the metal in the bucket being metallurgically odd,
and the 7018 not doing the deed.
I have not seen the piece of machinery yet. I know I'll select a spot that
I think is just plain steel, and weld it there. If it is plain steel, a
7018 should give me a nice stout weld on a grab hook to hold up to pulling
fence posts, and light loads this will be intended for. I know not to trust
welded on grab hooks for anything critical, being an old crane operator. I
already told him not to worry, if one hook broke off, we'd just weld another
on there.
Insights, caveats, opinions, and other welcome. I don't foresee any big
problems, but thought I'd run it up the flagpole before I do it.
Thanks as always.
Steve
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Posted by RAM³ on April 23, 2008, 8:52 pm
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> My neighbor came to me today to ask that I weld a couple of grab hooks
> onto the bucket of his Massey Ferguson front end loader so they can use
> chains in certain circumstances, just linking them into the welded on
> hooks.
>
> The hooks appear to be cast, yet I don't believe they are metallurgically
> the same as most cast iron as I have used these grab and slip hooks on
> chains, and have had them deform, but not snap like real cast iron would.
>
> Now, where I'm going to weld the hook to ...........
>
> A while back, I burned a hole in my BIL's bucket to mount a trailer ball
> to facilitate moving things around that had a hitch. There were two
> layers of material, and the topmost thin layer burned in a very weird way.
> I was able to punch the 1" hole through both pieces, but it was touch and
> go as to what the outcome would be.
>
> I'm wondering if this is going to be a funny situation with the grab hook
> being of a cast metal, the metal in the bucket being metallurgically odd,
> and the 7018 not doing the deed.
>
> I have not seen the piece of machinery yet. I know I'll select a spot
> that I think is just plain steel, and weld it there. If it is plain
> steel, a 7018 should give me a nice stout weld on a grab hook to hold up
> to pulling fence posts, and light loads this will be intended for. I know
> not to trust welded on grab hooks for anything critical, being an old
> crane operator. I already told him not to worry, if one hook broke off,
> we'd just weld another on there.
>
> Insights, caveats, opinions, and other welcome. I don't foresee any big
> problems, but thought I'd run it up the flagpole before I do it.
>
> Thanks as always.
>
> Steve
>
While helping a friend-of-a-cousin last summer, the friend's front loader
bucket had its hooks welded to the top of the rear of the bucket - 3 of them
(1 at each side and 1 in the center - facing towards the operator.
In addition to using the chains by themselves, the friend had a
self-designed boom that he'd made of 3" pipe, about 3' of 3"x1/4" C-channel
[welded into a "T" at one end] that went over the scraper edge of the bucket
and was held in place by a length of chain going from a hook on top of the
pipe to the two corner hooks on the bucket. For additional support, another
length of chain went from a pair of hooks on the pipe to the center hook on
the bucket. Additional hooks on the bottom of the pipe were used to keep the
lifting chain from slipping.
While this may be a common application, I, personally, hadn't seen one quite
like it.
The friend used the boom to lift wall sections of metal buildings so that
they could be turned over and welded on what, till then, had been the
underside.
These walls, BTW, were framed in 4"x4"x1/4" box tube with 2"x4"x1/4"
"studs".
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Posted by Jim Elbrecht on April 24, 2008, 7:50 am
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-snip-
>While helping a friend-of-a-cousin last summer, the friend's front loader
>bucket had its hooks welded to the top of the rear of the bucket - 3 of them
>(1 at each side and 1 in the center - facing towards the operator.
-snip-
40 yrs ago or so we had a blacksmith weld some hooks on a bucket. We
asked for that same setup & he talked us out of it. He welded all
three *inside* the bucket. His reasoning was that if we got a
little pull happy & a chain broke, the bucket would catch the pieces
instead of the operator.
I don't remember us ever breaking a chain- but maybe because it wasn't
as dramatic as it could have been.
Our objection was that we thought the hooks might interfere with
digging or get broken off while digging. I don't remember either
of those things happening, either. But then it was 40 yrs ago.
Jim
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Posted by Ignoramus22498 on April 23, 2008, 11:09 pm
Please log in for more thread options > My neighbor came to me today to ask that I weld a couple of grab hooks onto
> the bucket of his Massey Ferguson front end loader so they can use chains in
> certain circumstances, just linking them into the welded on hooks.
>
> The hooks appear to be cast, yet I don't believe they are metallurgically
> the same as most cast iron as I have used these grab and slip hooks on
> chains, and have had them deform, but not snap like real cast iron would.
There are "weld on" grab hooks, sold for just this purpose. See page
1403 of McMaster Carr catalog (available on the web). Also see
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-8-inch-Weld-on-Grab-Hook-Weldable-Chain-Bucket-Clevis_W0QQitemZ310044108605QQihZ021QQcategoryZ1268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> Now, where I'm going to weld the hook to ...........
>
> A while back, I burned a hole in my BIL's bucket to mount a trailer ball to
> facilitate moving things around that had a hitch. There were two layers of
> material, and the topmost thin layer burned in a very weird way. I was able
> to punch the 1" hole through both pieces, but it was touch and go as to what
> the outcome would be.
>
> I'm wondering if this is going to be a funny situation with the grab hook
> being of a cast metal, the metal in the bucket being metallurgically odd,
> and the 7018 not doing the deed.
I think that graded hooks are not cast iron. At least the decent ones
like Crosby, etc are steel or alloy steel.
Here's the Crosby catalog:
http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Crosby-Chain-and-Accessories.pdf
> I have not seen the piece of machinery yet. I know I'll select a spot that
> I think is just plain steel, and weld it there. If it is plain steel, a
> 7018 should give me a nice stout weld on a grab hook to hold up to pulling
> fence posts, and light loads this will be intended for. I know not to trust
> welded on grab hooks for anything critical, being an old crane operator. I
> already told him not to worry, if one hook broke off, we'd just weld another
> on there.
>
> Insights, caveats, opinions, and other welcome. I don't foresee any big
> problems, but thought I'd run it up the flagpole before I do it.
>
The ones from McMaster are rated and include welding instructions. $40
is not that much for some certain knowledge and peace of mind.
--
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to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/
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Posted by Private on April 23, 2008, 11:17 pm
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> My neighbor came to me today to ask that I weld a couple of grab hooks
> onto the bucket of his Massey Ferguson front end loader so they can use
> chains in certain circumstances, just linking them into the welded on
> hooks.
>
> The hooks appear to be cast, yet I don't believe they are metallurgically
> the same as most cast iron as I have used these grab and slip hooks on
> chains, and have had them deform, but not snap like real cast iron would.
>
> Now, where I'm going to weld the hook to ...........
>
> A while back, I burned a hole in my BIL's bucket to mount a trailer ball
> to facilitate moving things around that had a hitch. There were two
> layers of material, and the topmost thin layer burned in a very weird way.
> I was able to punch the 1" hole through both pieces, but it was touch and
> go as to what the outcome would be.
>
> I'm wondering if this is going to be a funny situation with the grab hook
> being of a cast metal, the metal in the bucket being metallurgically odd,
> and the 7018 not doing the deed.
>
> I have not seen the piece of machinery yet. I know I'll select a spot
> that I think is just plain steel, and weld it there. If it is plain
> steel, a 7018 should give me a nice stout weld on a grab hook to hold up
> to pulling fence posts, and light loads this will be intended for. I know
> not to trust welded on grab hooks for anything critical, being an old
> crane operator. I already told him not to worry, if one hook broke off,
> we'd just weld another on there.
>
> Insights, caveats, opinions, and other welcome. I don't foresee any big
> problems, but thought I'd run it up the flagpole before I do it.
>
> Thanks as always.
>
> Steve
Lots of better quality machinery uses cast (or forged) steel, that at first
glance may appear to be cast iron. A grinder spark test can be used to tell
the difference but the results are hard to interpret, IMHO a better and
easier to interpret test is to try cutting with an OA torch, cast steel will
behave quite differently under a cutting torch than cast iron will.
The steels used in the bottom and cutting edges of a dirt bucket can vary a
lot and can be very tricky to weld, some tip adapters are best welded with
stainless rod as it is great for welding weird and special AR type steels
and adapters. However, I suspect that you will be welding the hooks to the
upper sides or back of the bucket and these are usually plain or AR plate
and in fact may be T1 instead of true AR plate as it is very hard and will
wear almost as well as true AR plate but can be easier to weld. I would not
expect much in the way of exotic material in a bucket on a MF as these are
pretty much farmer machines but YMMV.
The hooks are probably forged steel but may be heat treated. IMHE, they can
usually be welded to bucket steels using 70, 80, 90, 100 or 11018 but some
preheat will be beneficial. Do not weld them very cold or very hot and a
little post heat to slow the cooling can also be beneficial.
As an old crane operator you know that we should (almost) NEVER lift with
chain and should use cables whenever possible. On the jobs I work on you
WILL be fired for lifting with chain. Real lifting chains are very
specialized pieces of equipment and subject to strict inspection and usage
regulation. They are quite different from decking or (shudder) hardware
chain. I would far rather see you welding on a piece of plate with a hole
for attaching a shackle. The plate will be far easier to get a great weld
on and will have more length for a good strong weld. You can not stop
haywire (or ignorant) workers from using chain for lifting if they are
determined to do so, but you should make it easy for them to use cable
slings instead. The safety advantage of cable over chain is substantial and
IMHO use of chain should be discouraged whenever possible.
I understand that the customer is the boss and if they want chain hooks then
they are the ones who will be paying for the installation and responsible
for their use (unless the weld fails). I do think that you should offer
alternatives that will be safer and I would note on your invoice that the
chain hooks were contrary to your advice. CAUTION, there may be local OH&S
regulation that demands certification or an engineers stamp on installation
of lifting equipment (or equipment that could be used for lifting).
Good luck, YMMV
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> onto the bucket of his Massey Ferguson front end loader so they can use
> chains in certain circumstances, just linking them into the welded on
> hooks.
>
> The hooks appear to be cast, yet I don't believe they are metallurgically
> the same as most cast iron as I have used these grab and slip hooks on
> chains, and have had them deform, but not snap like real cast iron would.
>
> Now, where I'm going to weld the hook to ...........
>
> A while back, I burned a hole in my BIL's bucket to mount a trailer ball
> to facilitate moving things around that had a hitch. There were two
> layers of material, and the topmost thin layer burned in a very weird way.
> I was able to punch the 1" hole through both pieces, but it was touch and
> go as to what the outcome would be.
>
> I'm wondering if this is going to be a funny situation with the grab hook
> being of a cast metal, the metal in the bucket being metallurgically odd,
> and the 7018 not doing the deed.
>
> I have not seen the piece of machinery yet. I know I'll select a spot
> that I think is just plain steel, and weld it there. If it is plain
> steel, a 7018 should give me a nice stout weld on a grab hook to hold up
> to pulling fence posts, and light loads this will be intended for. I know
> not to trust welded on grab hooks for anything critical, being an old
> crane operator. I already told him not to worry, if one hook broke off,
> we'd just weld another on there.
>
> Insights, caveats, opinions, and other welcome. I don't foresee any big
> problems, but thought I'd run it up the flagpole before I do it.
>
> Thanks as always.
>
> Steve
>