Drat!

Home| Search | About
User Password
Register Now! Lost Password?

Welding Forums - Welding of materials for manufacture & repair. 

Bookmark this page:  YahooMyWeb Yahoo!  Google Google  Windows Live Favorites Windows Live  del.icio.us del.icio.us  digg digg  Add to Netscape Netscape
Subject Author Date
Drat! SteveB 03-22-2008
Posted by Private on March 23, 2008, 2:42 pm
Please log in for more thread options
>
>
>>>>>Then TWANG!
>>>>>
>>>>>Something fell into the fan and it threw it into the radiator causing a
>>>>>hole. Looked under the engine, and it was half a lock washer. I have
>>>>>no
>>>>>clue where it vibrated from, probably somewhere around the shroud.
>>>>>I'll
>>>>>take the radiator to Vegas Wednesday where the best radiator man I know
>>>>>has
>>>>>a shop.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> You simply cant use acid core solder to patch the hole?
>>>>
>>>> Gunner
>>> I have successfully repaired radiator holes with JB Weld as well as with
>>> solder.
>>>
>>> Don Young
>>
>> I tried some solder I use for pipes, but it wouldn't work. I will buy
>> some acid core today and try that. I did use flux, too, but no dice. My
>> MAPP gas torch was acting up, so had to use propane/ox cutting torch at a
>> very low setting. May buy a new valve today, too.
>>
>> Steve
>
> Considering the low initial cost and very high value of this machine as
> well as its age, IMHO it is well worth doing a proper complete rebuild of
> the rad at this time. A field repair with solder or especially JB weld is
> IMHE a temporary fix and IMHO this machine deserves better.
>
> IMHE these rads do suffer damage from vibration and failed solder joints
> and mounts are fairly common. Most older cooling systems are also
> suffering the effects of ageing coolant with silica gel and dropout as
> well as internal corrosion. These old copper & brass rads will really
> benefit from a proper rad rebuild including a soak in the cleaning tank,
> removal of the end tanks and a rod out, and the mounts and joints will
> benefit from solder renewal. This rebuild work will allow the rad to give
> many more years of service, consider it a half-life rebuild.
>
> I would also suggest you combine the rad rebuild with a proper block flush
> before refilling with a 50/50 mixture of long life antifreeze and
> DISTILLED water. DO NOT USE TAP (OR ESPECIALLY WELL) WATER FOR MIXING
> COOLANT. Distilled or RO or other deionized water can be obtained
> inexpensively at most health food stores or you can use premixed$$
> coolant.
>
> I also suggest this may be a good time to replace the drain plugs and
> valves with new valves with attached drain hoses that will facilitate easy
> recovery of coolant at any future required servicing.
>
> When you go to see your friend the rad guy, I suggest you also take your
> gas tank as the rad cleaning tank will also do a great job of removing any
> old gas gunk & varnish from it.
>
> Good luck, YMMV

PS: Find the other half of the lock washer. Which really means check all
the shroud, engine and case bolts and washers at reassembly.



Posted by Leo Lichtman on March 23, 2008, 3:46 pm
Please log in for more thread options
"Private" wrote: (clip) These old copper & brass rads will really benefit
from a proper
> rad rebuild including a soak in the cleaning tank, removal of the end
> tanks and a rod out, and the mounts and joints will benefit from solder
> renewal. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Will the radiator shop use old-fashioned lead-tin solder, or are they
required to use lead-free? Do the troubles I've heard about electrical
solder joints extend to radiators as well? Seems really relevant in an
application like this, with lots of vibration.



Posted by Private on March 23, 2008, 5:21 pm
Please log in for more thread options

>
> "Private" wrote: (clip) These old copper & brass rads will really
> benefit from a proper
>> rad rebuild including a soak in the cleaning tank, removal of the end
>> tanks and a rod out, and the mounts and joints will benefit from solder
>> renewal. (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Will the radiator shop use old-fashioned lead-tin solder, or are they
> required to use lead-free? Do the troubles I've heard about electrical
> solder joints extend to radiators as well? Seems really relevant in an
> application like this, with lots of vibration.


Regulations may /often vary in different jurisdictions, but AFAIK lead free
solder is only required to be used in plumbing potable water. I am not
aware of issues with electrical troubles, please enlighten me. In this case
most of the original solder will probably remain on the parts and very
little additional solder will be required.

I still have lots of old solder in my stock and have not needed to buy any
recently but am not aware of any problems obtaining lead-tin solder from the
usual industrial suppliers, you may not be able to buy it from Home Depot or
small plumbing suppliers. I do not really like the flux or acid cored wire
solders and prefer to use solid wire solder and separate flux. Even
electrical work seems to have better results when wires are dipped in flux
even when using flux cored solder. In any event the real key seems to be
doing a really good cleaning before any soldering starts. Quality welding,
brazing, soldering and painting are all mostly about preparation.

I agree that this application involving old technology four cylinder engines
is prone to lots of vibration, and towing on a trailer can lead to large
shock loads from rough roads.

Just my .02, YMMV



Posted by Pete C. on March 23, 2008, 5:50 pm
Please log in for more thread options

Private wrote:
>
> >
> > "Private" wrote: (clip) These old copper & brass rads will really
> > benefit from a proper
> >> rad rebuild including a soak in the cleaning tank, removal of the end
> >> tanks and a rod out, and the mounts and joints will benefit from solder
> >> renewal. (clip)
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Will the radiator shop use old-fashioned lead-tin solder, or are they
> > required to use lead-free? Do the troubles I've heard about electrical
> > solder joints extend to radiators as well? Seems really relevant in an
> > application like this, with lots of vibration.
>
> Regulations may /often vary in different jurisdictions, but AFAIK lead free
> solder is only required to be used in plumbing potable water. I am not
> aware of issues with electrical troubles, please enlighten me. In this case
> most of the original solder will probably remain on the parts and very
> little additional solder will be required.

The EU ROHS regs that mandate lead free electrical solder have resulted
in a lot of issue with connection failures from vibration and thermal
cycling. They had to exempt anything aerospace so it wouldn't start
killing people.

>
> I still have lots of old solder in my stock and have not needed to buy any
> recently but am not aware of any problems obtaining lead-tin solder from the
> usual industrial suppliers, you may not be able to buy it from Home Depot or
> small plumbing suppliers. I do not really like the flux or acid cored wire
> solders and prefer to use solid wire solder and separate flux. Even
> electrical work seems to have better results when wires are dipped in flux
> even when using flux cored solder. In any event the real key seems to be
> doing a really good cleaning before any soldering starts. Quality welding,
> brazing, soldering and painting are all mostly about preparation.

The EU ROHS nonsense hasn't impacted DIY electronic stuff yet, but watch
out for early failures in many new consumer items that are being
manufactured to meet EU specs. If you resolder with proper solder you
can likely fix them in most cases.

>
> I agree that this application involving old technology four cylinder engines
> is prone to lots of vibration, and towing on a trailer can lead to large
> shock loads from rough roads.
>
> Just my .02, YMMV

Posted by glyford@gmail.com on March 23, 2008, 8:13 pm
Please log in for more thread options
> The EU ROHS regs that mandate lead free electrical solder have resulted
> in a lot of issue with connection failures from vibration and thermal
> cycling. They had to exempt anything aerospace so it wouldn't start
> killing people.

I'm not sure that heat and vibration are even needed. Do a search on
"tin wiskers". This seems to be a basic part of the tin chemistry
that only the addition of lead really solves. A lot of the stress
arises from the tin dissolving the base metal is it soldered to and
the enrgy and stress of incorporating it into its own crystal matrix.
Apparently Zinc does this too.

http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm

I wouldn't be suprised to see them give up in 5 or 10 years just say
"OK, y'all can go back to using lead now."
--Glenn Lyford


Contact Us | Privacy Policy

XML SitemapXML Sitemap