Splitter on Acetylene tank

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Splitter on Acetylene tank Ben 09-06-2008
Posted by Peter Fairbrother on September 8, 2008, 12:52 pm
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Curt Welch wrote:
>> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>>> "Curt Welch" wrote: (clip) But the more complex question is that in
>>>> the tank valve and high pressure side of the regulator, there is
>>>> higher pressure acetylene. What keeps that safe? Is it the volume
>>>> issue? Do they have to take care to not use passage ways and pipes
>>>> which are too large to keep it safe? (clip)
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> Yes. Please go back and read my post, which discusses the heat trasfer
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>
>> Not trying to be contradictory, but I'm going to have to be :( - it's
>> not really heat transfer, there are other edge effects which for a
>> detonation are usually more important.
>>
>> In a detonation heat transfer doesn't happen much, the detonation is too
>> quick - and it's detonations which are the worst result, though
>> overheating cylinders failing is a more common cause of injury or death
>> than detonations nowadays, due to the safety precautions built into
>> acetylene equipment.
>>
>> I'll describe one edge effect, one of the more important ones, but there
>> are more; for instance what happens to the shockwave at the edge can be
>> very important.
>>
>> Consider a speck of explosive just in front of a flat shock wave. It
>> gets energy from the wave from all directions - mostly from directly in
>> front, where the wave is closest, but from the sides as well.
>>
>> If the speck is at an edge of the explosive then the total energy it
>> gets is less, as there is no energy from the direction outside the
>> explosive, and the rate of transfer is slower - this will cause the
>> detonation to slow, and may even be enough to cause the detonation to
>> stop.
>>
>> In a cylindrical shape like the inside of a tube this also causes the
>> reaction front to bulge forward in the middle, and if the radius of
>> detonation becomes too small the detonation dies out.
>>
>> So it's not just the volume, it's the shape - plus the material the
>> manifold is made of and how thick it is (this affects the way shockwaves
>> bounce off it), and more - so don't make your own manifolds, buy proper
>> ones.
>>
>> I'm sorry if this is a lot to take in, but there is a lot that can
>> happen!
>>
>> -- Peter Fairbrother
>
> The part I'm having trouble following you on is that you are talking about
> what happens after a detonation gets started. You talk about how things
> have to be just right to keep them going, with the idea that if you design
> the system correctly, detonations won't keep going. And that's all fine
> and good. Better to have a small pop than an explosion that kills everyone
> and burns down the shop. But the real question here is what causes it to
> start in the first place?
>
> Are you saying that it's normal for micro-sized detonations to be starting
> all the time, but they instantly die out or something like that?

No.

The most obvious example of an existing detonation coming into contact
with bottle pressure acetylene is when there is detonating
acetylene/oxygen mix in the tube and the arrestor (and then often the
regulator) fails or is absent. Acetylene/oxygen mixes detonate very
easily even at atmospheric pressure. Note that there is not likely to be
an acetylene/oxygen mix in the bottle-pressure parts.

The *overriding* safety requirement for manifolds and bottle spaces is
to prevent detonations in bottle pressure acetylene spreading -
detonations reach much higher pressures, and are much more destructive
by shock effect, than even very fast deflagrations.



Stopping fast deflagrations (which thermal transfer to the walls can
sometimes do) would be nice, but even in professional equipment it
doesn't always happen - this is usually how bottles start a slow
deflagration inside, which is the most common cause of damage, serious
injury and death from acetylene equipment nowadays - but only because
detonations are prevented from spreading.


>
> Leo's answer makes sense to me because he was addressing how we keep the
> parameters from reaching the point where the detonation would start in the
> first place which seems to me are the most important aspect here.
>

Unfortunately, that's impractical.

-- Peter Fairbrother

Posted by Peter Fairbrother on September 8, 2008, 1:18 pm
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Peter Fairbrother wrote:

> [a slow deflagration inside a bottle] is the most common cause of damage,
serious
> injury and death from acetylene equipment nowadays - but only because
> detonations are prevented from spreading.

On reflection, I'm not so sure it's the most common cause of death - it
is the situation which is most worrying to the fire brigades, and I
maybe wrongly extrapolated that to it being the most common cause. I
don't know the actual statistics.

The fire brigades won't be there when a detonation occurs due to bad
equipment - it's almost instantaneous, and you're probably dead long
before they arrive. Whereas a slow deflagration inside a bottle can take
hours before it causes cylinder failure.

-- Peter Fairbrother

Posted by Curt Welch on September 8, 2008, 2:39 pm
Please log in for more thread options


> Curt Welch wrote:
> >> Leo Lichtman wrote:
> >>> "Curt Welch" wrote: (clip) But the more complex question is that in
> >>>> the tank valve and high pressure side of the regulator, there is
> >>>> higher pressure acetylene. What keeps that safe? Is it the volume
> >>>> issue? Do they have to take care to not use passage ways and pipes
> >>>> which are too large to keep it safe? (clip)
> >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>> Yes. Please go back and read my post, which discusses the heat
> >>> trasfer issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Not trying to be contradictory, but I'm going to have to be :( - it's
> >> not really heat transfer, there are other edge effects which for a
> >> detonation are usually more important.
> >>
> >> In a detonation heat transfer doesn't happen much, the detonation is
> >> too quick - and it's detonations which are the worst result, though
> >> overheating cylinders failing is a more common cause of injury or
> >> death than detonations nowadays, due to the safety precautions built
> >> into acetylene equipment.
> >>
> >> I'll describe one edge effect, one of the more important ones, but
> >> there are more; for instance what happens to the shockwave at the edge
> >> can be very important.
> >>
> >> Consider a speck of explosive just in front of a flat shock wave. It
> >> gets energy from the wave from all directions - mostly from directly
> >> in front, where the wave is closest, but from the sides as well.
> >>
> >> If the speck is at an edge of the explosive then the total energy it
> >> gets is less, as there is no energy from the direction outside the
> >> explosive, and the rate of transfer is slower - this will cause the
> >> detonation to slow, and may even be enough to cause the detonation to
> >> stop.
> >>
> >> In a cylindrical shape like the inside of a tube this also causes the
> >> reaction front to bulge forward in the middle, and if the radius of
> >> detonation becomes too small the detonation dies out.
> >>
> >> So it's not just the volume, it's the shape - plus the material the
> >> manifold is made of and how thick it is (this affects the way
> >> shockwaves bounce off it), and more - so don't make your own
> >> manifolds, buy proper ones.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry if this is a lot to take in, but there is a lot that can
> >> happen!
> >>
> >> -- Peter Fairbrother
> >
> > The part I'm having trouble following you on is that you are talking
> > about what happens after a detonation gets started. You talk about how
> > things have to be just right to keep them going, with the idea that if
> > you design the system correctly, detonations won't keep going. And
> > that's all fine and good. Better to have a small pop than an explosion
> > that kills everyone and burns down the shop. But the real question
> > here is what causes it to start in the first place?
> >
> > Are you saying that it's normal for micro-sized detonations to be
> > starting all the time, but they instantly die out or something like
> > that?
>
> No.
>
> The most obvious example of an existing detonation coming into contact
> with bottle pressure acetylene is when there is detonating
> acetylene/oxygen mix in the tube and the arrestor (and then often the
> regulator) fails or is absent. Acetylene/oxygen mixes detonate very
> easily even at atmospheric pressure. Note that there is not likely to be
> an acetylene/oxygen mix in the bottle-pressure parts.
>
> The *overriding* safety requirement for manifolds and bottle spaces is
> to prevent detonations in bottle pressure acetylene spreading -
> detonations reach much higher pressures, and are much more destructive
> by shock effect, than even very fast deflagrations.
>
> Stopping fast deflagrations (which thermal transfer to the walls can
> sometimes do) would be nice, but even in professional equipment it
> doesn't always happen - this is usually how bottles start a slow
> deflation inside, which is the most common cause of damage, serious
> injury and death from acetylene equipment nowadays - but only because
> detonations are prevented from spreading.
>
> >
> > Leo's answer makes sense to me because he was addressing how we keep
> > the parameters from reaching the point where the detonation would start
> > in the first place which seems to me are the most important aspect
> > here.
> >
>
> Unfortunately, that's impractical.
>
> -- Peter Fairbrother

Ok, so what does this all add up to then?

Is the real reason for keeping the pressure below 15 psi is that prevents
the possibility of an external ignition source causing it to detonate?
That is, it will only burn at that point and likely do less damage to the
people around it? That is, as long as it's pure acetylene because once you
mix enough air or o2 with it, it can detonate even at the low pressure?

So at higher pressures, there's no real risk of it exploding on it's own,
but the real danger is that the gas is in the range where it could detonate
instead of just burn if something were to trigger it (like a flash back).
So, when you have high pressure acetylene such as the valve and regulator,
the major design concern (for safety) is to keep the volume small enough so
that a detonation can't spread turning it into a fast deflagration at
worse?

And the porous material in the tank doesn't just keep the acetone from
bubbling out, but it also reduces the volume and density of the acetylene
to the point that a detonation won't spread through the high pressure tank?

So even though there might normally be some reaction tacking place in the
pure acetylene (as Leo was talking about), that alone won't produce enough
heat to start a fire of any type? Or at least, once you design the system
to limit a detonation, you also end up with a system that can't possibly
produce the run-away heat effect Leo talked about?

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/

Posted by Peter Fairbrother on September 8, 2008, 3:09 pm
Please log in for more thread options


Curt Welch wrote:
>> Curt Welch wrote:
>>>> Leo Lichtman wrote:
>>>>> "Curt Welch" wrote: (clip) But the more complex question is that in
>>>>>> the tank valve and high pressure side of the regulator, there is
>>>>>> higher pressure acetylene. What keeps that safe? Is it the volume
>>>>>> issue? Do they have to take care to not use passage ways and pipes
>>>>>> which are too large to keep it safe? (clip)
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>> Yes. Please go back and read my post, which discusses the heat
>>>>> trasfer issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Not trying to be contradictory, but I'm going to have to be :( - it's
>>>> not really heat transfer, there are other edge effects which for a
>>>> detonation are usually more important.
>>>>
>>>> In a detonation heat transfer doesn't happen much, the detonation is
>>>> too quick - and it's detonations which are the worst result, though
>>>> overheating cylinders failing is a more common cause of injury or
>>>> death than detonations nowadays, due to the safety precautions built
>>>> into acetylene equipment.
>>>>
>>>> I'll describe one edge effect, one of the more important ones, but
>>>> there are more; for instance what happens to the shockwave at the edge
>>>> can be very important.
>>>>
>>>> Consider a speck of explosive just in front of a flat shock wave. It
>>>> gets energy from the wave from all directions - mostly from directly
>>>> in front, where the wave is closest, but from the sides as well.
>>>>
>>>> If the speck is at an edge of the explosive then the total energy it
>>>> gets is less, as there is no energy from the direction outside the
>>>> explosive, and the rate of transfer is slower - this will cause the
>>>> detonation to slow, and may even be enough to cause the detonation to
>>>> stop.
>>>>
>>>> In a cylindrical shape like the inside of a tube this also causes the
>>>> reaction front to bulge forward in the middle, and if the radius of
>>>> detonation becomes too small the detonation dies out.
>>>>
>>>> So it's not just the volume, it's the shape - plus the material the
>>>> manifold is made of and how thick it is (this affects the way
>>>> shockwaves bounce off it), and more - so don't make your own
>>>> manifolds, buy proper ones.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry if this is a lot to take in, but there is a lot that can
>>>> happen!
>>>>
>>>> -- Peter Fairbrother
>>> The part I'm having trouble following you on is that you are talking
>>> about what happens after a detonation gets started. You talk about how
>>> things have to be just right to keep them going, with the idea that if
>>> you design the system correctly, detonations won't keep going. And
>>> that's all fine and good. Better to have a small pop than an explosion
>>> that kills everyone and burns down the shop. But the real question
>>> here is what causes it to start in the first place?
>>>
>>> Are you saying that it's normal for micro-sized detonations to be
>>> starting all the time, but they instantly die out or something like
>>> that?
>> No.
>>
>> The most obvious example of an existing detonation coming into contact
>> with bottle pressure acetylene is when there is detonating
>> acetylene/oxygen mix in the tube and the arrestor (and then often the
>> regulator) fails or is absent. Acetylene/oxygen mixes detonate very
>> easily even at atmospheric pressure. Note that there is not likely to be
>> an acetylene/oxygen mix in the bottle-pressure parts.
>>
>> The *overriding* safety requirement for manifolds and bottle spaces is
>> to prevent detonations in bottle pressure acetylene spreading -
>> detonations reach much higher pressures, and are much more destructive
>> by shock effect, than even very fast deflagrations.
>>
>> Stopping fast deflagrations (which thermal transfer to the walls can
>> sometimes do) would be nice, but even in professional equipment it
>> doesn't always happen - this is usually how bottles start a slow
>> deflation inside, which is the most common cause of damage, serious
>> injury and death from acetylene equipment nowadays - but only because
>> detonations are prevented from spreading.
>>
>>> Leo's answer makes sense to me because he was addressing how we keep
>>> the parameters from reaching the point where the detonation would start
>>> in the first place which seems to me are the most important aspect
>>> here.
>>>
>> Unfortunately, that's impractical.
>>
>> -- Peter Fairbrother
>
> Ok, so what does this all add up to then?
>
> Is the real reason for keeping the pressure below 15 psi is that prevents
> the possibility of an external ignition source causing it to detonate?

Yes. also deflagrations are not self-sustaining in acetylene at 15 psi
without a flame holder or hot spot.

> That is, it will only burn at that point and likely do less damage to the
> people around it?

Yes.
That is, as long as it's pure acetylene because once you
> mix enough air or o2 with it, it can detonate even at the low pressure?

Yes - but a low pressure detonation is far less dangerous than a high
pressure detonation, as there is more gas in a high pressure detonation.

>
> So at higher pressures, there's no real risk of it exploding on it's own,
> but the real danger is that the gas is in the range where it could detonate
> instead of just burn if something were to trigger it (like a flash back).

Not entirely correct - there is a risk of it detonating without a
detonation causing it - and it's a big risk, almost certain, if the
shape is big.

> So, when you have high pressure acetylene such as the valve and regulator,
> the major design concern (for safety) is to keep the volume small enough so
> that a detonation can't spread turning it into a fast deflagration at
> worst?

Yes.

> And the porous material in the tank doesn't just keep the acetone from
> bubbling out, but it also reduces the volume and density of the acetylene
> to the point that a detonation won't spread through the high pressure tank?

Sort-of. The porous material prevents detonations, It also prevents fast
deflagrations - only slow deflagrations are possible inside tanks which
are properly filled with porous stuff, this *is* due to thermal transfer
effects.

But the individual pores are very small, much smaller than typical
passages in acetylene equipment.

> So even though there might normally be some reaction tacking place in the
> pure acetylene (as Leo was talking about), that alone won't produce enough
> heat to start a fire of any type?

I haven't heard of this happening to any significant extent without a
catalyst present. Then it can form carbon nanotubes, polyacetylene
(which is a polymer which conducts electricity, but unfortunately is
unstable in air), soot and hydrogen, or various other things, depending
on catalyst and conditions.

Or at least, once you design the system
> to limit a detonation, you also end up with a system that can't possibly
> produce the run-away heat effect Leo talked about?

A detonation-proof system can still have deflagrations.

I don't know about the runaway effect, it's not something I have heard
of happening in relation to acetylene without a catalyst present, though
it does happen in other things.

Yes it will happen to some extent in acetylene, but I don't think it's
very significant as a source of ignition for today's acetylene
equipment. Plus I'm not entirely sure what he meant.

I intend to reply to reply to Leo's post in detail, but it will take
some time (which I haven't got a lot of right now) for research.



ps if you want a reply, please send to me as well, as I don't normally
follow this list

-- Peter Fairbrother


Posted by Denis G. on September 8, 2008, 11:57 pm
Please log in for more thread options


> Curt Welch wrote:
> >> Curt Welch wrote:
> >>>> Leo Lichtman wrote:
> >>>>> "Curt Welch" wrote: =A0(clip) =A0But the more complex question is t=
hat in
> >>>>>> the tank valve and high pressure side of the regulator, there is
> >>>>>> higher pressure acetylene. =A0What keeps that safe? =A0Is it the v=
olume
> >>>>>> issue? =A0Do they have to take care to not use passage ways and pi=
pes
> >>>>>> which are too large to keep it safe? (clip)
> >>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>>>> Yes. =A0Please go back and read my post, which discusses the heat
> >>>>> trasfer issue.
>
> >>>> Not trying to be contradictory, but I'm going to have to be :( - it'=
s
> >>>> not really heat transfer, there are other edge effects which for a
> >>>> detonation are usually more important.
>
> >>>> In a detonation heat transfer doesn't happen much, the detonation is
> >>>> too quick - and it's detonations which are the worst result, though
> >>>> overheating cylinders failing is a more common cause of injury or
> >>>> death than detonations nowadays, due to the safety precautions built
> >>>> into acetylene equipment.
>
> >>>> I'll describe one edge effect, one of the more important ones, but
> >>>> there are more; for instance what happens to the shockwave at the ed=
ge
> >>>> can be very important.
>
> >>>> Consider a speck of explosive just in front of a flat shock wave. It
> >>>> gets energy from the wave from all directions - mostly from directly
> >>>> in front, where the wave is closest, but from the sides as well.
>
> >>>> If the speck is at an edge of the explosive then the total energy it
> >>>> gets is less, as there is no energy from the direction outside the
> >>>> explosive, and the rate of transfer is slower - this will cause the
> >>>> detonation to slow, and may even be enough to cause the detonation t=
o
> >>>> stop.
>
> >>>> In a cylindrical shape like the inside of a tube this also causes th=
e
> >>>> reaction front to bulge forward in the middle, and if the radius of
> >>>> detonation becomes too small the detonation dies out.
>
> >>>> So it's not just the volume, it's the shape - plus the material the
> >>>> manifold is made of and how thick it is (this affects the way
> >>>> shockwaves bounce off it), and more - so don't make your own
> >>>> manifolds, buy proper ones.
>
> >>>> I'm sorry if this is a lot to take in, but there is a lot that can
> >>>> happen!
>
> >>>> -- Peter Fairbrother
> >>> The part I'm having trouble following you on is that you are talking
> >>> about what happens after a detonation gets started. =A0You talk about=
how
> >>> things have to be just right to keep them going, with the idea that i=
f
> >>> you design the system correctly, detonations won't keep going. =A0And
> >>> that's all fine and good. =A0Better to have a small pop than an explo=
sion
> >>> that kills everyone and burns down the shop. =A0But the real question
> >>> here is what causes it to start in the first place?
>
> >>> Are you saying that it's normal for micro-sized detonations to be
> >>> starting all the time, but they instantly die out or something like
> >>> that?
> >> No.
>
> >> The most obvious example of an existing detonation coming into contact
> >> with bottle pressure acetylene is when there is detonating
> >> acetylene/oxygen mix in the tube and the arrestor (and then often the
> >> regulator) fails or is absent. Acetylene/oxygen mixes detonate very
> >> easily even at atmospheric pressure. Note that there is not likely to =
be
> >> an acetylene/oxygen mix in the bottle-pressure parts.
>
> >> The *overriding* safety requirement for manifolds and bottle spaces is
> >> to prevent detonations in bottle pressure acetylene spreading -
> >> detonations reach much higher pressures, and are much more destructive
> >> by shock effect, than even very fast deflagrations.
>
> >> Stopping fast deflagrations (which thermal transfer to the walls can
> >> sometimes do) would be nice, but even in professional equipment it
> >> doesn't always happen - this is usually how bottles start a slow
> >> deflation inside, which is the most common cause of damage, serious
> >> injury and death from acetylene equipment nowadays - but only because
> >> detonations are prevented from spreading.
>
> >>> Leo's answer makes sense to me because he was addressing how we keep
> >>> the parameters from reaching the point where the detonation would sta=
rt
> >>> in the first place which seems to me are the most important aspect
> >>> here.
>
> >> Unfortunately, that's impractical.
>
> >> -- Peter Fairbrother
>
> > Ok, so what does this all add up to then?
>
> > Is the real reason for keeping the pressure below 15 psi is that preven=
ts
> > the possibility of an external ignition source causing it to detonate?
>
> Yes. also deflagrations are not self-sustaining in acetylene at 15 psi
> without a flame holder or hot spot.
>
> > That is, it will only burn at that point and likely do less damage to t=
he
> > people around it? =A0
>
> Yes.
> That is, as long as it's pure acetylene because once you
>
> > mix enough air or o2 with it, it can detonate even at the low pressure?
>
> Yes - but a low pressure detonation is far less dangerous than a high
> pressure detonation, as there is more gas in a high pressure detonation.
>
>
>
> > So at higher pressures, there's no real risk of it exploding on it's ow=
n,
> > but the real danger is that the gas is in the range where it could deto=
nate
> > instead of just burn if something were to trigger it (like a flash back=
).
>
> Not entirely correct - there is a risk of it detonating without a
> detonation causing it - and it's a big risk, almost certain, if the
> shape is big.
>
> > So, when you have high pressure acetylene such as the valve and regulat=
or,
> > the major design concern (for safety) is to keep the volume small enoug=
h so
> > that a detonation can't spread turning it into a fast deflagration at
> > worst?
>
> Yes.
>
> > And the porous material in the tank doesn't just keep the acetone from
> > bubbling out, but it also reduces the volume and density of the acetyle=
ne
> > to the point that a detonation won't spread through the high pressure t=
ank?
>
> Sort-of. The porous material prevents detonations, It also prevents fast
> deflagrations - only slow deflagrations are possible inside tanks which
> are properly filled with porous stuff, this *is* due to thermal transfer
> effects.
>
> But the individual pores are very small, much smaller than typical
> passages in acetylene equipment.
>
> > So even though there might normally be some reaction tacking place in t=
he
> > pure acetylene (as Leo was talking about), that alone won't produce eno=
ugh
> > heat to start a fire of any type? =A0
>
> I haven't heard of this happening to any significant extent without a
> catalyst present. Then it can form carbon nanotubes, polyacetylene
> (which is a polymer which conducts electricity, but unfortunately is
> unstable in air), soot and hydrogen, or various other things, depending
> on catalyst and conditions.
>
> Or at least, once you design the system
>
> > to limit a detonation, you also end up with a system that can't possibl=
y
> > produce the run-away heat effect Leo talked about?
>
> A detonation-proof system can still have deflagrations.
>
> I don't know about the runaway effect, it's not something I have heard
> of happening in relation to acetylene without a catalyst present, though
> it does happen in other things.
>
> Yes it will happen to some extent in acetylene, but I don't think it's
> very significant as a source of ignition for today's acetylene
> equipment. Plus I'm not entirely sure what he meant.
>
> I intend to reply to reply to Leo's post in detail, but it will take
> some time (which I haven't got a lot of right now) for research.
>
> ps if you want a reply, please send to me as well, as I don't normally
> follow this list
>
> -- Peter Fairbrother- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I was wondering if the sintered metal in the flashback arrestors
worked similarly to the porous filler in the acetylene bottle --
working by disipating the energy from the flash in a torch head
preventing it from propagating down the hose. Same with the metal
gauze on the designs for carbide-acetylene coal miner's lamps.
(Of course there's no O2 in the bottle (hopefully), but the porous
filler would still disipate energy.)

Maybe you have to appeal to the Ideal Gas law PV=3DnRT and limiting any
of the variables in the equation is a way of limiting the energy that
could set off an explosion --- controlling the thermodynamics.

Links I've found on the web for this topic are pretty old (turn of the
century), but I'll bet the chemistry that they explain is still sound.

1911 Encyclopedia Britannica entry for =93acetylene=94:
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Acetylene

Longer text from 1909: Acetylene, The Principles Of Its Generation
And Use
http://www.archive.org/stream/acetylenetheprin08144gut/8acet10.txt

Chemistry class on acetylene (more for fun):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKXh7__ri1VQ


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